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| Re: High court upholds Mich affirmative action ban (1176702) | |
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Re: High court upholds Mich affirmative action ban |
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Posted by AlM on Wed Apr 23 11:14:51 2014, in response to Re: High court upholds Mich affirmative action ban, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Apr 23 11:05:35 2014. Simple question.A has slightly better grades and test scores than B. B is from a signficantly lower income family but would be given enough financial aid so they could attend if admitted. You don't know the race of either A or B. Should B be admitted in preference to A? |
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Re: High court upholds Mich affirmative action ban |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Apr 23 11:15:57 2014, in response to Re: High court upholds Mich affirmative action ban, posted by AlM on Wed Apr 23 08:56:37 2014. IAWTP 100%. That is my take on it as well. |
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Re: High court upholds Mich affirmative action ban |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Apr 23 11:16:53 2014, in response to Re: High court upholds Mich affirmative action ban, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Apr 23 09:39:04 2014. But it's not the applicant's accomplishment. How is that any different than an inborn trait like race? |
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Re: High court upholds Mich affirmative action ban |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Apr 23 11:19:26 2014, in response to Re: High court upholds Mich affirmative action ban, posted by AlM on Wed Apr 23 11:14:51 2014. Based on just the information you gave, A, because A has better grades.But don't try and add info after the fact. |
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Re: High court upholds Mich affirmative action ban |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Apr 23 11:20:22 2014, in response to Re: High court upholds Mich affirmative action ban, posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Apr 23 11:16:53 2014. Again, it's not merely the face of the person which can't be changed no matter what. |
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Re: High court upholds Mich affirmative action ban |
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Posted by AlM on Wed Apr 23 11:24:32 2014, in response to Re: High court upholds Mich affirmative action ban, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Apr 23 11:19:26 2014. Hmm.But there is plenty of evidence that if you have two people of equal inherent test-taking ability, the one of lower economic standing will do worse (statistically) because their life is more likely to be chaotic, learning is less likely to be emphasized at home, study discipline is less likely to be enforced at home because parents are out working, etc. So you would rather have the student with lesser ability (again, all this is statistical averages) be admitted than the one with greater ability but more obstacles in their path. Isn't that discrimination based on class? Amd to the extent race and class are correlated, discrimination based on race? |
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Re: High court upholds Mich affirmative action ban |
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Posted by mtk52983 on Wed Apr 23 11:25:21 2014, in response to Re: High court upholds Mich affirmative action ban, posted by AlM on Wed Apr 23 11:14:51 2014. Depends on the difference in scores/grades, AP/IB classes and results versus what was offered in the schools, letters of recommendation and essays. On the last point if I were an Admissions counselor I would be looking for the person who would most benefit from the education that the school provides. If I read about some Habitat for Humanity spring break trip I would be less impressed than reading about the person who still managed to do well in AP classes despite working a part time job and babysitting a younger sibling while the single parent worked multiple jobs. The latter candidate shows a lot more potential and dedication to academics and if they are at a level that they can be "coached up" to the scores/grades that the former had (that is why the scores/grades need to be close) you are looking at more upside |
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Re: High court upholds Mich affirmative action ban |
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Posted by AlM on Wed Apr 23 11:27:10 2014, in response to Re: High court upholds Mich affirmative action ban, posted by mtk52983 on Wed Apr 23 11:25:21 2014. Exactly. And if you don't have all that information, I would contend that a moderate adjustment for family income is justifed. |
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Re: High court upholds Mich affirmative action ban |
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Posted by mtk52983 on Wed Apr 23 11:31:59 2014, in response to Re: High court upholds Mich affirmative action ban, posted by AlM on Wed Apr 23 11:27:10 2014. If we are just speculating, maybe, but an Admissions officer WILL have all of that information to make a determination on which applicants to accept, reject, or wait list |
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Re: High court upholds Mich affirmative action ban |
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Posted by AlM on Wed Apr 23 11:35:18 2014, in response to Re: High court upholds Mich affirmative action ban, posted by mtk52983 on Wed Apr 23 11:31:59 2014. Will an admissions officer know that the father is working 2 jobs and the mother is on evening shift, so the kid just has to come home and fend for himself? And if he doesn't do his homework there is no one there to give him a bit of a lecture about it? |
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Re: High court upholds Mich affirmative action ban |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Apr 23 11:40:02 2014, in response to Re: High court upholds Mich affirmative action ban, posted by AlM on Wed Apr 23 11:24:32 2014. So you would rather have the student with lesser ability (again, all this is statistical averages) be admitted than the one with greater abilityNo, I responded on the info YOU gave, which stated A did better. It said nothing of lesser ability, it said one did better. Don't be a Nilet And there are plenty of poor whites that have the same problem poor blacks have. This has nothing to do with race. |
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Re: High court upholds Mich affirmative action ban |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Apr 23 11:41:47 2014, in response to Re: High court upholds Mich affirmative action ban, posted by mtk52983 on Wed Apr 23 11:25:21 2014. The latter candidate shows a lot more potential and dedication to academics and if they are at a level that they can be "coached up" to the scores/grades that the former had (that is why the scores/grades need to be close) you are looking at more upsideThere was no such information in Al's post. Again, I was VERY specific when answering. I said BASED on the info given, and not adding any after the fact. |
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Re: High court upholds Mich affirmative action ban |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Apr 23 11:43:08 2014, in response to Re: High court upholds Mich affirmative action ban, posted by AlM on Wed Apr 23 11:27:10 2014. And you said "simple question" in your post. And I answered....based on the INFO you gave, and was very specific about not adding more info after the fact. You asked for a simple answer to a "simple" question. I responded with just that. THEN you did add more info, as I suspected your plan was. |
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Re: High court upholds Mich affirmative action ban |
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Posted by AlM on Wed Apr 23 11:54:38 2014, in response to Re: High court upholds Mich affirmative action ban, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Apr 23 11:40:02 2014. It said nothing of lesser ability, it said one did better.But the other had lower income. You don't think lower income for the same ability results in lower test scores, statistically? |
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Re: High court upholds Mich affirmative action ban |
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Posted by mtk52983 on Wed Apr 23 11:55:10 2014, in response to Re: High court upholds Mich affirmative action ban, posted by AlM on Wed Apr 23 11:35:18 2014. The applicant would be smart to find a way to weave that into the essays |
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Re: High court upholds Mich affirmative action ban |
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Posted by AlM on Wed Apr 23 11:56:08 2014, in response to Re: High court upholds Mich affirmative action ban, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Apr 23 11:43:08 2014. My answer to mkt52983 was not in reply to your post. It was related to his post. |
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Re: High court upholds Mich affirmative action ban |
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Posted by mtk52983 on Wed Apr 23 11:56:26 2014, in response to Re: High court upholds Mich affirmative action ban, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Apr 23 11:41:47 2014. And as I responded to AIM, there is a lot missing from his hypothetical that makes it impossible to give an answer |
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Re: High court upholds Mich affirmative action ban |
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Posted by AlM on Wed Apr 23 11:59:38 2014, in response to Re: High court upholds Mich affirmative action ban, posted by mtk52983 on Wed Apr 23 11:55:10 2014. Higher income stidents get better advice about how to weave things into essays than lower income students. I don't think you realize how much harder the whole application process is for lower income students. |
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Re: High court upholds Mich affirmative action ban |
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Posted by Train Dude on Wed Apr 23 12:26:18 2014, in response to Re: High court upholds Mich affirmative action ban, posted by AlM on Wed Apr 23 08:56:37 2014. Reaffirm economic advantage? So does the neighborhood you live in and the car you drive, the cloths you wear and even the food that you eat. If there is nothing to be gained by economic advantage, then why aspire to do better for your family? |
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Re: High court upholds Mich affirmative action ban |
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Posted by Train Dude on Wed Apr 23 12:32:21 2014, in response to Re: High court upholds Mich affirmative action ban, posted by AlM on Wed Apr 23 11:24:32 2014. "But there is plenty of evidence that if you have two people of equal inherent test-taking ability, the one of lower economic standing will do worse (statistically) because their life is more likely to be chaotic, learning is less likely to be emphasized at home, study discipline is less likely to be enforced at home because parents are out working, etc."Hence, they are more likely to make less efficient use of the resources that are invested in them and less likely to succeed in college. |
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Re: High court upholds Mich affirmative action ban |
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Posted by AlM on Wed Apr 23 12:32:48 2014, in response to Re: High court upholds Mich affirmative action ban, posted by Train Dude on Wed Apr 23 12:26:18 2014. I'm saying universities should be trying to give opportunities to those that are economically disadvantaged but have the ability to do well in life with a proper education.The well-off have plenty of opportunities to maintain their advantages. Universities should provide some advantages to the poorly off who have the ability to succeed but haven't drawn a good hand in life. |
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Re: High court upholds Mich affirmative action ban |
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Posted by AlM on Wed Apr 23 12:35:24 2014, in response to Re: High court upholds Mich affirmative action ban, posted by Train Dude on Wed Apr 23 12:32:21 2014. Possibly, if they have to live at home. Moderate cost state universities do provide an opportunity for students to get away from their home chaos and do much better in college than they could have done in high school. |
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Re: High court upholds Mich affirmative action ban |
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Posted by Train Dude on Wed Apr 23 12:44:48 2014, in response to Re: High court upholds Mich affirmative action ban, posted by AlM on Wed Apr 23 12:32:48 2014. Why? Having our finger on the scale for all these years has not worked. It has not evened the results. When do we stop pretending that we are doing good in the face of failed results and try to find real solutions. |
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Re: High court upholds Mich affirmative action ban |
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Posted by Train Dude on Wed Apr 23 12:46:59 2014, in response to Re: High court upholds Mich affirmative action ban, posted by AlM on Wed Apr 23 12:35:24 2014. Do you have any validated data to back up that claim? I'd say that you'd be sadly disappointed. |
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Re: High court upholds Mich affirmative action ban |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Apr 23 13:17:03 2014, in response to Re: High court upholds Mich affirmative action ban, posted by AlM on Wed Apr 23 11:54:38 2014. No, why should it? |
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Re: High court upholds Mich affirmative action ban |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Apr 23 13:17:39 2014, in response to Re: High court upholds Mich affirmative action ban, posted by mtk52983 on Wed Apr 23 11:56:26 2014. He asked for a "simple" answer, and that's what I gave him based on what little info he provided. |
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Re: High court upholds Mich affirmative action ban |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Apr 23 13:18:16 2014, in response to Re: High court upholds Mich affirmative action ban, posted by AlM on Wed Apr 23 11:59:38 2014. And that applies to people of any race. |
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Re: High court upholds Mich affirmative action ban |
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Posted by AlM on Wed Apr 23 13:25:44 2014, in response to Re: High court upholds Mich affirmative action ban, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Apr 23 13:17:03 2014. Staistical correlation between lower income and more chaotic family life, less parental supervision, etc. |
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Re: High court upholds Mich affirmative action ban |
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Posted by AlM on Wed Apr 23 13:26:27 2014, in response to Re: High court upholds Mich affirmative action ban, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Apr 23 13:18:16 2014. And? |
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Re: High court upholds Mich affirmative action ban |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Apr 23 13:30:13 2014, in response to Re: High court upholds Mich affirmative action ban, posted by AlM on Wed Apr 23 13:26:27 2014. It won't hurt black poor people any more than white poor people. |
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Re: High court upholds Mich affirmative action ban |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Apr 23 13:30:33 2014, in response to Re: High court upholds Mich affirmative action ban, posted by AlM on Wed Apr 23 13:25:44 2014. And? |
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Re: High court upholds Mich affirmative action ban |
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Posted by AlM on Wed Apr 23 13:35:24 2014, in response to Re: High court upholds Mich affirmative action ban, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Apr 23 13:30:13 2014. True. It hurts both black poor people and white poor people. That makes it a bad thing. |
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Re: High court upholds Mich affirmative action ban |
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Posted by AlM on Wed Apr 23 13:35:51 2014, in response to Re: High court upholds Mich affirmative action ban, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Apr 23 13:30:33 2014. I answered your question about "Why should it?" |
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Re: High court upholds Mich affirmative action ban |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Apr 23 13:41:53 2014, in response to Re: High court upholds Mich affirmative action ban, posted by AlM on Wed Apr 23 13:35:51 2014. And as I said from the beginning was that both were bad, but racial is worse.Racial is absolute, as you can't change your race. Financial is a different story. |
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Re: High court upholds Mich affirmative action ban |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Wed Apr 23 14:08:36 2014, in response to Re: High court upholds Mich affirmative action ban, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Apr 23 11:40:02 2014. Don't be a NiletMost lefties are Nilets at heart. Only noticing that now? |
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Re: High court upholds Mich affirmative action ban |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Apr 23 14:10:20 2014, in response to Re: High court upholds Mich affirmative action ban, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Apr 23 11:20:22 2014. And how is that different from legacy? |
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Re: High court upholds Mich affirmative action ban |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Apr 23 14:11:47 2014, in response to Re: High court upholds Mich affirmative action ban, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Apr 23 13:41:53 2014. You can't change who your parents are. That makes legacy identical to race. |
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Re: High court upholds Mich affirmative action ban |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Apr 23 14:14:02 2014, in response to Re: High court upholds Mich affirmative action ban, posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Apr 23 14:11:47 2014. That is correct, but if they went there, that is not related to race or who someone inherently is. If you8 notice, a lot of jobs are given based on "who you know" too. Is that wrong too? |
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Re: High court upholds Mich affirmative action ban |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Wed Apr 23 14:15:28 2014, in response to High court upholds Mich affirmative action ban, posted by DAnD124 on Tue Apr 22 12:48:01 2014. Dennis Prager: "There are more Asians at Berkeley than whites". |
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Re: High court upholds Mich affirmative action ban |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Apr 23 14:19:25 2014, in response to Re: High court upholds Mich affirmative action ban, posted by Train Dude on Wed Apr 23 12:44:48 2014. Because a person's success in life should be based on their personal abilities, not those of the parents he was lucky to be born to. |
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Re: High court upholds Mich affirmative action ban |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Apr 23 14:33:05 2014, in response to Re: High court upholds Mich affirmative action ban, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Apr 23 14:14:02 2014. Who your parents are is part of what you "inherently" are.And getting a job based on whom you know is based on the connections you've developed in your life. But even then, it's still wrong. |
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Re: High court upholds Mich affirmative action ban |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Apr 23 14:33:20 2014, in response to Re: High court upholds Mich affirmative action ban, posted by LuchAAA on Wed Apr 23 14:15:28 2014. So? |
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Re: High court upholds Mich affirmative action ban |
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Posted by AlM on Wed Apr 23 14:37:44 2014, in response to Re: High court upholds Mich affirmative action ban, posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Apr 23 14:19:25 2014. +10. |
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Re: High court upholds Mich affirmative action ban |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Apr 23 15:44:24 2014, in response to Re: High court upholds Mich affirmative action ban, posted by SelkirkTMO on Wed Apr 23 05:50:20 2014. You don't know what you're talking about. Laws enacted by popular referendum are subject to the same constitutional review as any laws adopted by a legislature.Not all cases have dissenting opinions. Some are unanimous. |
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Re: High court upholds Mich affirmative action ban |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Apr 23 15:45:52 2014, in response to Re: High court upholds Mich affirmative action ban, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Apr 23 11:19:26 2014. Colleges don't just look at grades. They look at other aspects of an applicant's record. |
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Re: High court upholds Mich affirmative action ban |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Apr 23 15:46:58 2014, in response to Re: High court upholds Mich affirmative action ban, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Apr 23 11:05:35 2014. What? They can certainly get in. It's up to them to then figure out how to pay. |
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Re: High court upholds Mich affirmative action ban |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Apr 23 15:49:32 2014, in response to Re: High court upholds Mich affirmative action ban, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Apr 23 09:58:11 2014. Why do you think it is less bad? The applicant did nothing to cause his mother to be an alumna of the school. |
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Re: High court upholds Mich affirmative action ban |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Apr 23 16:05:14 2014, in response to Re: High court upholds Mich affirmative action ban, posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Apr 23 14:33:05 2014. No it's not. Your aunt could know someone, your father could know someone, your friend could know someone, your mother's friend can know someone....and so forth. It's not necessarily based on "connections you developed in your life". |
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Re: High court upholds Mich affirmative action ban |
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Posted by AlM on Wed Apr 23 16:06:22 2014, in response to Re: High court upholds Mich affirmative action ban, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Apr 23 16:05:14 2014. All the more reason why colleges should accept people based on ability with an adjustment for disadvantaged circumstances. |
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Re: High court upholds Mich affirmative action ban |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Apr 23 16:06:43 2014, in response to Re: High court upholds Mich affirmative action ban, posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Apr 23 14:19:25 2014. But once again, what about the job market. That's also very much based on "who you know". And I explained in another post that it's not just connections you made in your life.As for it "being wrong", okay, well that doesn't change that many jobs are gotten that way. MOre than one would think. |
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