Another Queens Bus Redesign misstep

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Another Queens Bus Redesign misstep
Posted by gbs on Mon Jun 16 22:20:23 2025 For the first almost 2 miles of their routes, from downtown Flushing to Queens College, the Q17 and Q25 share the same route along Kissena Blvd. Their starting points near the subway on Main St are blocks apart. Currently, if you're one of the many riders who can use either bus to your destination, you can wait at their first stop after the starting points, at the library where Kissena Blvd begins at Main St. Both routes are staying the same after the redesign (except for the elimination of their limited runs), but according to the new bus stop signs and the route profiles on the MTA website, only the Q17 will stop at the library, and only the Q25 will stop at the next stop (Sanford Av). The first shared stop will be at Franklin Av, almost a half mile from the subway station. This means that anyone who can use either bus between downtown Flushing and Queens College will have to choose between one or the other and wait at the appropriate stop. It won't be possible to catch the first one to leave by waiting at a shared stop.
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Re: Another Queens Bus Redesign misstep
Posted by Allen45* on Tue Jun 17 06:46:30 2025, in response to Another Queens Bus Redesign misstep, posted by gbs on Mon Jun 16 22:20:23 2025.* There are plenty of stops that are not congruent with this redesign.
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Re: Another Queens Bus Redesign misstep
Posted by Stephen Bauman* on Tue Jun 17 07:16:52 2025, in response to Another Queens Bus Redesign misstep, posted by gbs on Mon Jun 16 22:20:23 2025.* Blame longer bus lengths and the new subway exits for the cause of the problem. Add to this the MTA's planning's disregard for customer convenience. Bus stops were originally separated by operating company. Queens-Nassau buses used the block between Roosevelt and 41st Rd; North Shore buses the blocks between Roosevelt and 39th Ave and Roosevelt Ave between Union and Prince Streets. That was back in the day of 30 foot buses. There wasn't much change when the 40 footers were introduced. The 60 footers, SBS and eliminating turns from Main onto Roosevelt started the chaos. The multiple turns required to avoid making turns from Main onto Roosevelt induced more bus traffic than it eliminated. It also meant that many routes required two stops instead of one. All that gobbled up curb space and a hike in the rain to get to/from bus to subway.
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Re: Another Queens Bus Redesign misstep
Posted by Allen45* on Tue Jun 17 08:25:46 2025, in response to Re: Another Queens Bus Redesign misstep, posted by Stephen Bauman on Tue Jun 17 07:16:52 2025.* Express buses also help ease the burden.
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Re: Another Queens Bus Redesign misstep
Posted by Stephen Bauman* on Tue Jun 17 12:23:10 2025, in response to Re: Another Queens Bus Redesign misstep, posted by Allen45 on Tue Jun 17 08:25:46 2025.* Express buses make the situation a lot worse. First, the passenger subsidy is far greater for express bus riders than local bus riders. This is because most of these buses operate twice per day. Each requires a driver and storage space. The average express bus rider subsidy is in excess of that given to DiBlasio's ferry boat riders. That's how bad it is. NYCT/MTA bus operations are the least efficiently operated in the US. The extra operating cost, compared to the average of other large cities, is and has been around $1 billion per year. It's the elephant in the room that nobody is addressing or even acknowledging.
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Re: Another Queens Bus Redesign misstep
Posted by Italianstallion* on Tue Jun 17 14:04:49 2025, in response to Another Queens Bus Redesign misstep, posted by gbs on Mon Jun 16 22:20:23 2025.* While this may be a misstep, there were years and many meetings of feedback solicited. If no one mentioned it, it's on them.
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Re: Another Queens Bus Redesign misstep
Posted by Allen45* on Tue Jun 17 17:44:35 2025, in response to Re: Another Queens Bus Redesign misstep, posted by Stephen Bauman on Tue Jun 17 12:23:10 2025.* You cannot push to make it harder to drive and force people onto subways they do not want to be in, while Manhattanites get to citibike and uber everywhere.
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Re: Another Queens Bus Redesign misstep
Posted by Stephen Bauman* on Tue Jun 17 17:46:51 2025, in response to Re: Another Queens Bus Redesign misstep, posted by Italianstallion on Tue Jun 17 14:04:49 2025.* For one thing, the Q17 move occurred after the many meetings. The other is that the MTA did not provide meaningful data until after the redesign was approved by the MTA Board. That meaningful data consisted of the proposed GTFS schedule.
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Re: Another Queens Bus Redesign misstep
Posted by Stephen Bauman* on Wed Jun 18 07:12:03 2025, in response to Re: Another Queens Bus Redesign misstep, posted by Allen45 on Tue Jun 17 17:44:35 2025.* You cannot push to make it harder to drive and force people onto subways they do not want to be in The reverse is true. Money that should have been invested into public transit was systemically diverted into building and maintaining roads. This policy dates back to the abandonment of the original 1929 SAS plan. That plan was a misnomer. It actually called for expansion into the outer boroughs. The Second Avenue trunk was essentially a conduit for this expansion not an end in itself. Bloomberg's PlanNYC advocated against expanding the subway network into areas it did not serve. It and subsequent "planning" has reinforced this idea. It condemned half of Queens, major areas of Brooklyn and most of Staten Island to be served by expensive and inadequate bus service. These policies have forced people into cars and roads that cannot handle the inevitable volume. Buses have proved to be inadequate for the task they have been assigned. The Queens Redesign is an example of "putting lipstick on a pig."
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Re: Another Queens Bus Redesign misstep
Posted by Allen45* on Wed Jun 18 09:44:12 2025, in response to Re: Another Queens Bus Redesign misstep, posted by Stephen Bauman on Wed Jun 18 07:12:03 2025.* Trains are beneficial but at the end of the day you can only go so far with them, you are limited to where the trains go. There's also a reason why buses are preferred over streetcars. Of note, you even had express buses in the 1980s like the BxM11 that were popular enough, they ran more buses off peak than the SIM1C does today from Staten Island.
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Re: Another Queens Bus Redesign misstep
Posted by Stephen Bauman* on Wed Jun 18 10:30:55 2025, in response to Re: Another Queens Bus Redesign misstep, posted by Allen45 on Wed Jun 18 09:44:12 2025.* at the end of the day you can only go so far with them, you are limited to where the trains go That depends on government policy and its willingness to carry it out. Paris embarked on a stated policy of Metro expansion after the success of the first two lines in the early 1900's. The policy was to expand until every building was within 500 meters (0.3 miles) of a Metro entrance. Paris did not expand to its 1848 boundary (the 20 arrondissments) until the 1920's. There were still peach orchards within its gates in the early 1900's. The current criterion is 1/2 mile walking distance or 800 meters. Today's Metro entrances are within 97% of the buildings in Paris. 84% meet the 1900's criterion of 500 meters. The comparable 800 meter figure for NYC is 43%, with Manhattan coming in at 87% and Queens at 45%. The other boroughs are: Bronx at 53%; Brooklyn at 64% and Staten Island trailing at 3%. I've estimated that had the 1929 SAS plan been implemented, approximately 72% of Queens buildings would have been within 800 meters of a subway entrance. That figure would have been much closer to 97%, had I used a building census from 1939 - the 1929 plan's projected completion date. Had they been proposed and carried out, postwar plans would have placed NYC on a par with Paris regarding ubiquitous subway access.
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Re: Another Queens Bus Redesign misstep
Posted by Allen45* on Wed Jun 18 10:48:46 2025, in response to Re: Another Queens Bus Redesign misstep, posted by Stephen Bauman on Wed Jun 18 10:30:55 2025.* The willingness to carry it out will always be limited when you have a populace that merely tolerates trains, especially subways. You cannot force everyone to use subways. Get rid of all express buses and you will have a reality where those in gentrifying neighborhoods get to use citibike, ubers and lyfts at their pleasure while everyone else suffers. You know what, there's a push to subsidize citibike and once that happens I bet lyft will get more preferential treatment from NYCDOT than the private bus companies ever could dream of. As much as people used to hate on the Coopers on these boards 20 years ago, especially that "voiceofreason" guy on bustalk, the bike activists funded by Mark Gorton as well as uber and lyft are worse, much worse. I wish that we had a world where much of Queens bus service was managed by Paul and Douglas Cooper today in 2025.
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Re: Another Queens Bus Redesign misstep
Posted by Gotham Bus Co.* on Sat Jun 28 17:41:35 2025, in response to Another Queens Bus Redesign misstep, posted by gbs on Mon Jun 16 22:20:23 2025.* For the first almost 2 miles of their routes, from downtown Flushing to Queens College, the Q17 and Q25 share the same route along Kissena Blvd. Their starting points near the subway on Main St are blocks apart. The different starting points may be the clue: - Q17 starts at 38th Avenue (about 1,000 feet north of the library). - Q25 starts at 40th Road (about 300 feet north of the library and visible from there). Having Q17 stop at the library is consistent with the goal of wider stop spacing. Having Q25 stop at the library is not. Presumably this came up at one or more of the many meetings and in some of the comments. (My own choice would have been to have both routes' first stops on the same block. Ditto for Q26 and Q27.)
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Re: Another Queens Bus Redesign misstep
Posted by gbs* on Sun Jun 29 21:14:53 2025, in response to Re: Another Queens Bus Redesign misstep, posted by Gotham Bus Co. on Sat Jun 28 17:41:35 2025.* I'm sure you're correct about the reason for the Q25 not stopping at the library, but it's just stupid to have two buses that share a route for almost two miles to not have a shared stop near the subway, depriving riders of the ability to take whichever comes first. I doubt such a granular piece of information ever came up at one of the many meetings. ("Oh, by the way, did we tell you that the Q25 won't be stopping at the library?") Your suggestion about their starting points being near each other is valid, but, if it was even considered, wasn't implemented. There's always hope for the next redesign....
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Re: Another Queens Bus Redesign misstep
Posted by Italianstallion* on Tue Jul 1 15:13:01 2025, in response to Re: Another Queens Bus Redesign misstep, posted by gbs on Sun Jun 29 21:14:53 2025.* Things can be fixed in between redesigns. If the community and their elected leaders complain, the bus stops can be combined. Bus stops move not infrequently.
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