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PABT may get $10 Billion overhaul

Posted by GojiMet86 on Thu Jan 21 15:43:21 2021

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/21/nyregion/port-authority-bus-terminal.html

Notorious’ Port Authority Bus Terminal May Get a $10 Billion Overhaul
After years of study and debate, there is finally a proposal to rebuild the Midtown Manhattan eyesore from the ground up.

By Patrick McGeehan and Winnie Hu
Jan. 21, 2021
Updated 2:20 p.m. ET

Few public spaces in the country have been derided so thoroughly and so often as the Port Authority Bus Terminal in the heart of Manhattan.

The dreary 70-year-old station, with its leaky ceilings and dingy vestibules, has become synonymous with the overburdened, crumbling infrastructure that has made commuting in New York City a grim slog.

Now, the agency that operates the bus terminal — the busiest in the country — has settled on a final proposal for transforming it into a 21st-century transit hub capable of handling many more buses.

The project’s announcement on Thursday follows the opening on Jan. 1 of the Moynihan Train Hall, a majestic, light-filled terminus meant to alleviate overcrowding and offer a far more appealing gateway to New York than Pennsylvania Station, which is arguably the most miserable train hub in the United States.

Taken together, the projects, along with the rebuilding of La Guardia Airport and an overhaul of Kennedy International Airport, signal an ambitious rebuilding of New York’s tattered infrastructure after decades of decline, and they could provide the city a vital boost as it struggles to recover from the pandemic.

The bus terminal plan, which has been in the works for more than seven contentious years, would cost as much as $10 billion and could take a decade to complete. It comes amid a steep decline in the financial condition of the agency, the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey, that operates the terminal.

The agency hopes to get help in financing the project by selling rights to put a commercial tower on top of the expanded terminal and build three other high-rises nearby.

The Port Authority is counting on federal aid to avoid jeopardizing plans for major improvements to other transportation facilities it operates in the region, including La Guardia and Kennedy, as well as Newark Liberty International Airport.

Port Authority officials estimated that, by early next year, the pandemic would have wiped out about $3 billion in expected revenue largely because of the plunge in air travel.

Even though several big projects stand in line ahead of the bus terminal in the Port Authority’s building plans, agency officials say their intention to replace it is staunch.

“The Port Authority is committed to dramatically transforming one of the region’s most notorious and out-of-date transit facilities,” said Rick Cotton, the agency’s executive director.

Mr. Cotton said it was too soon to provide a reliable estimate of the project’s cost, which has been projected in the past at $7.5 billion to $10 billion. The proposal, which he called “ingenious,” must still get through environmental reviews before it can compete for any federal funding. He said the agency had a “10-year time frame” for completing the project.

An earlier proposal had caused an uproar among community leaders because it suggested the liberal use of eminent domain powers to relocate the terminal. But the revised plan is less likely to rile up the terminal’s neighbors in the Hell’s Kitchen neighborhood because it does not include the taking of any private property.

Instead, they would rebuild and enlarge the existing bus terminal while keeping it open for travelers.

The new proposal also addresses a constant complaint of Manhattan residents: the steady stream of intercity buses that pick up and drop passengers at various curbsides, snarling traffic and blocking sidewalks. The plan calls for building a depot west of the main terminal that could accommodate those buses and provide storage for others.

The Port Authority has eliminated several alternatives, including building the new terminal under the old one, under the Jacob K. Javits Convention Center or in New Jersey.

“They’ve come up with a much better plan than they had originally,” said Thomas K. Wright, chief executive of the Regional Plan Association, an influential planning group.

Mr. Wright said replacing the terminal is a necessity no matter how much it costs because of the integral role it plays in the city’s daily commute. More than 250,000 people passed through it on a typical weekday before the pandemic, according to the Port Authority. Since March, that traffic has dropped by more than 65 percent.

“New York ceases to exist without its connections to the surrounding communities and the work force,” Mr. Wright said. “Without it, the city enters into a period of decline.”

The bus terminal, a brick hulk perched at the mouth of the Lincoln Tunnel, has long exceeded its capacity — when it opened in late 1950, it was expected to handle 60,000 passengers a day. Though the station was rehabilitated in the early 1980s, it cannot accommodate the crush of commuters mostly from New Jersey that use it in normal times.

The Port Authority wants the new terminal to be able to handle 1,000 buses during the peak evening rush hour, up from about 850 today. It also would be designed to provide charging equipment for electric buses, according to the plan.

Buses may be less romantic than trains, but other big cities have been investing in their bus transit systems to help alleviate traffic and pollution from cars. More than a dozen American cities, including San Francisco, Denver and Raleigh, N.C., have moved in the past decade to build new bus stations or create multimodal transit hubs that bring together bus and rail services, said Joseph P. Schwieterman, a professor of public service at DePaul University in Chicago.

“You get a lot of bang for your buck with bus terminals because you can pack so much into a small space and move a lot of people,” Mr. Schwieterman said.

In San Francisco, a $2.2 billion regional transportation hub, the Salesforce Transit Center, consolidated regional bus service in 2018 in a terminal that covers more than four downtown blocks and includes a fitness center, stores and a rooftop park. There are plans to add rail service that would connect with the region and state.

Of course, no American city compares to New York in the sheer number of buses that converge on it every morning during rush hours. In addition to the suburban commuter fleets, the city is a hub for regional and national bus companies and has the largest municipal bus system in the nation.

“New York is in a class of its own with its massive schedule of operations,” Mr. Schwieterman said. “You have this crush of motor coaches during rush hour. It’s a tremendous logistical challenge.”

But the questions of what to do and how to pay for a new bus terminal have bedeviled officials of the Port Authority for years. In early 2017, after heated debates among its commissioners, the agency inserted $3.5 billion into its long-term capital plan for replacing the terminal.

The project will cost far more than that, Mr. Cotton said. But the agency hopes to raise much of the balance by selling development rights and striking a deal with the city to allow the developers to make payments toward the project in lieu of local taxes.

The agency also intends to seek federal transportation funds, which it does not normally receive. Port Authority projects usually are paid for with a combination of the agency’s own money and contributions from private developers. The agency collects tolls at its bridges and tunnels that connect New York City to New Jersey, and fees and rents at its airports, seaport and other facilities.

Port Authority officials have pleaded for emergency aid to compensate for the revenue it has lost during the pandemic.

“We’ve been sounding this alarm since the early weeks of last spring,” Mr. Cotton said. “We believe the projects in the Port Authority capital plan can make a major contribution to restarting the economy, and we can have a big impact in terms of near-term spending on projects that are ready to go.”


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(341686)

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Re: PABT may get $10 Billion overhaul

Posted by NIMBYkiller on Mon Jan 25 12:36:05 2021, in response to PABT may get $10 Billion overhaul, posted by GojiMet86 on Thu Jan 21 15:43:21 2021.

My personal opinion is that this is the best of all the options presented. The increase in capacity isn't anything outrageous (I'm a firm believer in putting more money into expanding rail infrastructure to shift riders from the heaviest volume bus routes to rail) and the addition of the layover/storage facility fixes a MASSIVE failure in logistics. At the moment, the vast majority of buses layover in NJ, meaning deadheading back in out the AM and back in for the PM rush, which turns the inbound Lincoln Tunnel into the thing of nightmares past 3pm

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Re: PABT may get $10 Billion overhaul

Posted by Joe V on Mon Jan 25 14:15:11 2021, in response to Re: PABT may get $10 Billion overhaul, posted by NIMBYkiller on Mon Jan 25 12:36:05 2021.

They actually have to build 2bus terminals. The first one is a temporary one to be built on swing space while they build a new one on the footprint of the old one.

I don't really know if the old one is so bad that it must be leveled to the ground in order to fix it. Seems like overkill.

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Re: PABT may get $10 Billion overhaul

Posted by metrolinecoach111 on Mon Jan 25 17:18:50 2021, in response to Re: PABT may get $10 Billion overhaul, posted by Joe V on Mon Jan 25 14:15:11 2021.

That's the only way to open up the air rights to bring the private development at the heart of the project.



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Re: PABT may get $10 Billion overhaul

Posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Jan 25 17:29:14 2021, in response to Re: PABT may get $10 Billion overhaul, posted by metrolinecoach111 on Mon Jan 25 17:18:50 2021.

The north wing was designed with air rights in mind and with the structural ability to support an office tower.

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(341693)

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Re: PABT may get $10 Billion overhaul

Posted by Joe V on Mon Jan 25 18:35:54 2021, in response to Re: PABT may get $10 Billion overhaul, posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Jan 25 17:29:14 2021.

It is like scrapping PATH cars. The 25 year old PA4's were scrapped with the 1960's and early 1970's cars. So of course they will rip down the North Terminal (once called The Annex) along with the South Terminal since the PA likes to spend a lot of money.

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(341694)

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Re: PABT may get $10 Billion overhaul

Posted by Joe on Mon Jan 25 18:52:54 2021, in response to PABT may get $10 Billion overhaul, posted by GojiMet86 on Thu Jan 21 15:43:21 2021.

One must remember that the current PABT is an enlarged terminal, not merely a seventy-year old building. In 1950, buses concerned me little, but we did sometimes get a PSNJ bus to Susquehanna Transfer or a Greyhound/Vermont Transit bus to Winsted, Connecticut, from off-street terminals. PSNJ got moved into the "Port of Authority," while there was no room for Greyhound until the early 1960's. Then the north building and the third or fourth floor opened around 1979, and I had to relearn the insides of the building. I believe local streets are infested with discount coach services and jitneys, a congestion problem that was supposed to be solved in 1950. I recall how Walter's Transit brought Putnam Division commuters out of GCT to the West 41st and 7th Avenue curb. At least PABT offers shelter, lavatories, and newsstands.

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(341696)

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Re: PABT may get $10 Billion overhaul

Posted by Joe V on Mon Jan 25 19:46:19 2021, in response to Re: PABT may get $10 Billion overhaul, posted by Joe on Mon Jan 25 18:52:54 2021.

Where was Greyhound until the early 1960's ?

I only remember on the lower level being Greyhound gates on one side, and Trailways on the other. All the others and commuter buses were up 1 or 2 levels.

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(341703)

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Re: PABT may get $10 Billion overhaul

Posted by NIMBYkiller on Wed Jan 27 18:35:31 2021, in response to Re: PABT may get $10 Billion overhaul, posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Jan 25 17:29:14 2021.

Ooff

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(341704)

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Re: PABT may get $10 Billion overhaul

Posted by NIMBYkiller on Wed Jan 27 18:35:52 2021, in response to Re: PABT may get $10 Billion overhaul, posted by Joe V on Mon Jan 25 14:15:11 2021.

Yes, and the temp one they build is being converted afterwards into the layover facility

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(341705)

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Re: PABT may get $10 Billion overhaul

Posted by Joe on Wed Jan 27 18:53:39 2021, in response to Re: PABT may get $10 Billion overhaul, posted by Joe V on Mon Jan 25 19:46:19 2021.

Through the 1950's Greyhound had to remain in its two off-street terminals, 34th Street (Penn Station) and 50th Street. When we would ride from NY to Winsted, the bus would start at 34th Street, then pick up more passengers at West 50th Street. This Pittsfield local was joint service with Vermont Transit. We often drew a driver off the extra board, and Dad would have to direct him on some of the highway turns and visiting the bus ticket office in Danbury.
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I can date the move into PABT because of a discussion I had with a cook on Staten Island! I don't know why the spots on the lower floor became available.
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On the other hand, the Berkshire Connector of the Thruway opened in 1959, and NY-Pittsfield direct service used NJ 17 and the Thruway, leaving only one daily local via Winsted.

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(341706)

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Re: PABT may get $10 Billion overhaul

Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Jan 27 19:21:23 2021, in response to Re: PABT may get $10 Billion overhaul, posted by NIMBYkiller on Wed Jan 27 18:35:31 2021.

???

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(341714)

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Re: PABT may get $10 Billion overhaul

Posted by NIMBYkiller on Thu Jan 28 18:31:35 2021, in response to Re: PABT may get $10 Billion overhaul, posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Jan 27 19:21:23 2021.

The fact that they could already develop the air rights but are still doing this

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(341715)

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Re: PABT may get $10 Billion overhaul

Posted by kcram3500 on Thu Jan 28 22:05:06 2021, in response to Re: PABT may get $10 Billion overhaul, posted by NIMBYkiller on Thu Jan 28 18:31:35 2021.

The North Wing is significantly smaller (less than half the block) than the South. Air rights for a full city block over the South Wing would be extremely lucrative in today's midtown Manhattan commercial real estate market.

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Re: PABT may get $10 Billion overhaul

Posted by Joe V on Fri Jan 29 06:45:26 2021, in response to Re: PABT may get $10 Billion overhaul, posted by kcram3500 on Thu Jan 28 22:05:06 2021.

Yet they are to make the yet-to-be-built temporary bus terminal eventually a parking garage for buses, true ?

I suppose the city will not get property tax revenue from that.

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Re: PABT may get $10 Billion overhaul

Posted by SUBWAYMAN on Fri Jan 29 12:19:06 2021, in response to Re: PABT may get $10 Billion overhaul, posted by Joe V on Fri Jan 29 06:45:26 2021.

Why should it make a profit?

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(341721)

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Re: PABT may get $10 Billion overhaul

Posted by Joe V on Fri Jan 29 12:25:12 2021, in response to Re: PABT may get $10 Billion overhaul, posted by SUBWAYMAN on Fri Jan 29 12:19:06 2021.

I didn't say it should make a profit, but the City wants ratables, and likely not happy for foregoing it for Jersey's buses.

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(341722)

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Re: PABT may get $10 Billion overhaul

Posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Jan 29 15:29:54 2021, in response to Re: PABT may get $10 Billion overhaul, posted by Joe V on Fri Jan 29 12:25:12 2021.

But how much more tax revenue does the city get from all the businesses that are in the city and staffed by PABT commuters?

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Re: PABT may get $10 Billion overhaul

Posted by Joe V on Fri Jan 29 16:32:00 2021, in response to Re: PABT may get $10 Billion overhaul, posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Jan 29 15:29:54 2021.

I don't know, but this is additional real estate to be taken up with a bus parking lot that is not there now. Maybe the air rights will get them some tax revenue.

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Re: PABT may get $10 Billion overhaul

Posted by kcram3500 on Fri Jan 29 18:26:20 2021, in response to Re: PABT may get $10 Billion overhaul, posted by Joe V on Fri Jan 29 16:32:00 2021.

The parking facility allows the city to gain several things:

- first and foremost, traffic flow in PM rush
- as was mentioned, revenue from the commuters who can now get in and out of midtown more easily
- supporting businesses like coffee and sandwich shops for the drivers who are leaving their buses instead of deadheading elsewhere
- assuming this pandemic is under control by the time the new PABT is complete and the temp building is just a bus parking facility, charter buses may be able to use it on weekends, which helps with tourism revenue

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Re: PABT may get $10 Billion overhaul

Posted by randyo on Fri Jan 29 23:45:52 2021, in response to Re: PABT may get $10 Billion overhaul, posted by Joe V on Fri Jan 29 06:45:26 2021.

Even if it’s only a parking facility for the buses the city should still be entitled to tax revenue from somebody.

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Re: PABT may get $10 Billion overhaul

Posted by kcram3500 on Sat Jan 30 08:04:40 2021, in response to Re: PABT may get $10 Billion overhaul, posted by randyo on Fri Jan 29 23:45:52 2021.

Not so much tax revenue, but more likely a lease deal with the PA, similar to the airports. JFK and LaGuardia are owned by NYC, and Newark Airport is owned by Newark - the PA leases them from the cities. No reason NYC couldn't work out a similar deal for these new bus facilities.

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Re: PABT may get $10 Billion overhaul

Posted by Joe V on Sat Jan 30 09:10:28 2021, in response to Re: PABT may get $10 Billion overhaul, posted by kcram3500 on Sat Jan 30 08:04:40 2021.

Park of EWR lies in North Elizabeth. I don't think Newark licensed taxis serve those parts.

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Re: PABT may get $10 Billion overhaul

Posted by pragmatist on Sat Jan 30 11:16:20 2021, in response to Re: PABT may get $10 Billion overhaul, posted by kcram3500 on Sat Jan 30 08:04:40 2021.

Anything that gets (or keeps) more people working in NYC may be a net positive. NY collects income tax on wages earned in NYC from non residents. Prior efforts to redevelop with public private partnership plans failed more than once.

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Re: PABT may get $10 Billion overhaul

Posted by kcram3500 on Sat Jan 30 12:44:33 2021, in response to Re: PABT may get $10 Billion overhaul, posted by Joe V on Sat Jan 30 09:10:28 2021.

Elizabeth taxis serve Terminal A, but the city of Newark owns the airport itself.

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Re: PABT may get $10 Billion overhaul

Posted by Brightonr68 on Sun Jan 31 20:51:10 2021, in response to Re: PABT may get $10 Billion overhaul, posted by randyo on Fri Jan 29 23:45:52 2021.

The city does . All the money the office workers traveling on these buses spend and all the indirect jobs .

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Re: PABT may get $10 Billion overhaul

Posted by Brightonr68 on Sun Jan 31 20:56:33 2021, in response to Re: PABT may get $10 Billion overhaul, posted by kcram3500 on Thu Jan 28 22:05:06 2021.

Not post covid post bail reform nyc . The teal estate market is up 20% for homes in no and Florida . Many of the workers are pressuring their employers to open offices in the suburbs. . The exact opposite of he post Rudy era with low crime rate in nyc . High crime equals lower employment . Wife’s office is only planing to bring back 60% of the jobs to Manhattan . Rest are going to be in no , west Chester and ct. offices . Many big employers such as citi group have been shedding square ft of offices over the past 10 years and putting in more desks in the remaining offices space . This is in response to the rising office rents . Post covid , the desks are two close together .

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Re: PABT may get $10 Billion overhaul

Posted by TransitChuckG on Mon Feb 1 07:43:42 2021, in response to Re: PABT may get $10 Billion overhaul, posted by Brightonr68 on Sun Jan 31 20:56:33 2021.

Post covid , the desks are too close together . Yes, that's a problem.


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Re: PABT may get $10 Billion overhaul

Posted by Joe V on Mon Feb 1 09:01:14 2021, in response to Re: PABT may get $10 Billion overhaul, posted by TransitChuckG on Mon Feb 1 07:43:42 2021.

Over the last 15 years, corporate America has "restacked" their offices from 5' high cubicle walls to 3', and crammed them closer together with "open concept", making for a noisy and distracting environment.

This has occurred as Millenials think work means yammering on conference calls all day, some pacing up and down aisles with their headsets while they yack to show all how important they are.

That pettiness is now biting them in the ass with social distancing requirements.

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(341747)

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Re: PABT may get $10 Billion overhaul

Posted by TransitChuckG on Mon Feb 1 17:07:11 2021, in response to Re: PABT may get $10 Billion overhaul, posted by Joe V on Mon Feb 1 09:01:14 2021.

In our mechanical drafting room, the drafting desks were very close together in the 1960s-70s.
Your storage desk was part of the drafting desk behind you.The last drafting desk in line had a separate flat top desk behind him.

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(341749)

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Re: PABT may get $10 Billion overhaul

Posted by NIMBYkiller on Mon Feb 1 18:43:20 2021, in response to Re: PABT may get $10 Billion overhaul, posted by kcram3500 on Fri Jan 29 18:26:20 2021.

That last part, if it happens, is especially beneficial for Hells Kitchen residents, businesses, and potential developers, as right now summer turns the neighborhood into a never ending game of charter buses playing musical chairs, along with a few commuter buses like Trans Bridge and, before they closed, Beiber.

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(341750)

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Re: PABT may get $10 Billion overhaul

Posted by SUBWAYMAN on Tue Feb 2 01:07:31 2021, in response to Re: PABT may get $10 Billion overhaul, posted by Brightonr68 on Sun Jan 31 20:56:33 2021.

Where do you get your stories from?

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Re: PABT may get $10 Billion overhaul

Posted by Snilcher on Tue Feb 2 11:51:16 2021, in response to Re: PABT may get $10 Billion overhaul, posted by Joe V on Mon Feb 1 09:01:14 2021.

Admittedly this is straying off topic for BusChat, but the company where I worked until my recent retirement had been moving toward an "open floor" concept until they finally ran out of money for renovations, so my department was fortunately spared losing their individual offices.

Universally, management loved the idea and the engineers all hated it. There were loads of studies quoted which all agreed that it made the office less productive, not more.

The professed rationale behind the conversions was to increase collaboration between groups, but at the same time it was suggested that employees minimize talking to keep the environment as quiet as possible to let people do their work.

The main reason companies go this way is to save money on office setup and reshuffles during personnel moves.





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(341754)

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Re: PABT may get $10 Billion overhaul

Posted by TransitChuckG on Tue Feb 2 16:24:04 2021, in response to Re: PABT may get $10 Billion overhaul, posted by TransitChuckG on Mon Feb 1 17:07:11 2021.

When I transitioned into drawing with Auto-Cad, with a different company, and eventually 3-D modeling , we all had cubicles with computers, desk space and file cabinets. The cubicle walls were nice, but you could still hear your neighbor talking on the phone, etc.

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(341863)

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Re: PABT may get $10 Billion overhaul WTF? WTH!

Posted by Dan on Thu Feb 11 15:18:55 2021, in response to PABT may get $10 Billion overhaul, posted by GojiMet86 on Thu Jan 21 15:43:21 2021.

I guess the PANYNJ never heard of the huge Work From Home trend that is here to stay. Most NJ commuters are very happy doing WFH from the safety and security of their suburban homes. Also remember that many of these commuters higher level employees with the kind of jobs suited to WFH. They are saving hundreds each month and getting hours of their day back.

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(341864)

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Re: PABT may get $10 Billion overhaul WTF? WTH!

Posted by Joe V on Thu Feb 11 16:16:58 2021, in response to Re: PABT may get $10 Billion overhaul WTF? WTH!, posted by Dan on Thu Feb 11 15:18:55 2021.

We don't know what will happen post-pandemic.
Employers do not care what makes their employees happy.

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(341865)

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Re: PABT may get $10 Billion overhaul WTF? WFH!

Posted by Dan on Thu Feb 11 16:27:43 2021, in response to Re: PABT may get $10 Billion overhaul WTF? WTH!, posted by Joe V on Thu Feb 11 16:16:58 2021.

True but WFH saves employers millions a year in expensive NYC office rents.

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(341866)

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Re: PABT may get $10 Billion overhaul WTF? WFH!

Posted by Joe V on Thu Feb 11 16:28:48 2021, in response to Re: PABT may get $10 Billion overhaul WTF? WFH!, posted by Dan on Thu Feb 11 16:27:43 2021.

If they are in 10 year leases, that won't matter.

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(341868)

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Re: PABT may get $10 Billion overhaul WTF? WTH!

Posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Feb 11 17:41:40 2021, in response to Re: PABT may get $10 Billion overhaul WTF? WTH!, posted by Dan on Thu Feb 11 15:18:55 2021.

Why am I not surprised that you mentioned “safety and security of their suburban homes?”

The 80s called, they want their fear of crime back.

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Re: PABT may get $10 Billion overhaul WTF? WTH!

Posted by Dyre Dan on Fri Feb 12 17:40:33 2021, in response to Re: PABT may get $10 Billion overhaul WTF? WTH!, posted by Joe V on Thu Feb 11 16:16:58 2021.

Employers do not care what makes their employees happy.

Smart employers do, since a satisfied employee is likely to be more productive, and remain in the position longer.

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