W.B.'s Bus Almanac for January 14th (332501) | |
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(332502) | |
Re: W.B.'s Bus Almanac for January 14th |
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Posted by W.B. on Mon Jan 14 08:10:13 2019, in response to W.B.'s Bus Almanac for January 14th, posted by W.B. on Mon Jan 14 08:07:00 2019. And here, for those interested, is the picture in question:This explains a lot as to why many early 1970's pics of 2A buses had a huge blank spot on not only southbound but also northbound runs (which would have read "2A to 168 St via 7 Ave"). |
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(332503) | |
Re: W.B.'s Bus Almanac for January 14th |
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Posted by andy on Mon Jan 14 09:28:38 2019, in response to W.B.'s Bus Almanac for January 14th, posted by W.B. on Mon Jan 14 08:07:00 2019. In March 1969 Route #2 was eliminated. In its place a new Route #101A was created that operated on Third (NB) and Lexington (SB) Avenues south of 116th Street, and then on Lenox Avenue between 116th and 147th Streets in place of Route #2. The irony was that #2 was the NYCO replacement of the old #4 Lexington/Lenox route which was eliminated in 1960 when Third and Lexington became one way. Basically the #2 was returning to its “roots” (pun intended). #2A (Fifth/Madison & 7th Aves.) retained its 1966 number.In 1974 the alpha suffixes were removed from MABSTOA routes and the #2A reverted back to its original #2 moniker, although the route had never changed except for the Fifth-Madison couplet in 1966. #101A became #102. Both #2 and #102 still operate today with minimal changes from the 1970s, with the added “M” route prefix adapted in the 1970s. M2 is now a limited stop service except during owl periods, and M102’s south terminal is 6th Street, not City Hall. |
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(332504) | |
Re: W.B.'s Bus Almanac for January 14th |
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Posted by W.B. on Mon Jan 14 10:07:51 2019, in response to Re: W.B.'s Bus Almanac for January 14th, posted by andy on Mon Jan 14 09:28:38 2019. Ya want irony? Here's another irony. At the time the old NYCO Division #4 was eliminated it was based out of 146th Street depot - and #2, at 100th. In 1964 #2 was transferred to 146th where it remained to its 1969 demise, and the new M-101A that replaced it north of 116th was based out of - 100th Street! (Reading accounts of the 1960 Third and Lexington conversions, apparently only #2 got extended to 146th and Lenox at the time; #1 didn't go up there "via 135th Street" until 1963-64.)As well, the old NYCO Division #3 was basically replaced on that 1960 day when Third and Lexington became one-way by that "short-turn" M-101 between 125th and 23rd Streets that you'd mentioned in your book, driven by Fifth Avenue Coach drivers on buses marked Surface Transit and assigned out of 100th Street. (It was also the second "short-turn" M-101 variant, another in operation at the time of Surface Transit and Westchester Street Transportation's October 1958 route map only ran between 96th and 6th Streets.) Another thing: That 1969 elimination of #2 - Fifth-Madison-Lenox was plotted as far back as 1967. A July 14 transcript from that year in the same MaBSTOA proceedings book cited in this Almanac, detailed their intention to eliminate the #2 and - guess what? - salvage its route north of 116th Street to create a "new" branch of the #101 - Third and Lexington Avenues line. But when the Fifth and Madison one-way conversions took effect, initially #2 had more buses per hour in peak and non-peak hours than #2A (again, per the OA horses' mouths). I.I.N.M., it was 4-minute headways in peak hours and 6-minute headways non-peak for #2, and 6-minute headways at peak and 8 minutes non-peak for #2A. It'd be interesting if anybody saved any MaBSTOA timetables for this combo, or if each branch had an individual timetable. |
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(332509) | |
Re: W.B.'s Bus Almanac for January 14th |
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Posted by randyo on Mon Jan 14 17:07:40 2019, in response to W.B.'s Bus Almanac for January 14th, posted by W.B. on Mon Jan 14 08:07:00 2019. I seem to recall that the southern terminal for the FACCO #15 was always 25 St/5 Av. |
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(332510) | |
Re: W.B.'s Bus Almanac for January 14th |
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Posted by W.B. on Mon Jan 14 19:13:10 2019, in response to Re: W.B.'s Bus Almanac for January 14th, posted by randyo on Mon Jan 14 17:07:40 2019. There was a time in the early 1960's, if photos and some newspaper articles of the time, when FACCo #15 terminated south at Washington Square, then after the park was closed to bus traffic in 1963 said terminus for a period became 8th Street and Fourth Avenue. There was no evidence, however, that #15 ventured anywhere south past 25th Street on either of the Bloomingdale's issued bus maps as tied in to the World's Fair during 1964-65. |
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(332511) | |
Re: W.B.'s Bus Almanac for January 14th |
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Posted by andy on Mon Jan 14 19:37:08 2019, in response to Re: W.B.'s Bus Almanac for January 14th, posted by W.B. on Mon Jan 14 10:07:51 2019. Thanks for posting. Manhattan's bus routes have had a long and sometimes tortured history. The FACO and NYCO bus routes on Fifth and Madison Avenues, respectively, carried duplicate route numbers. The fare was higher on the FACO routes until 1956, when NYCO routes began charging 15 cents. And the FACO #2 used double deck buses till about 1951, when GMC TDH4509's identical to the ones on Madison Avenue made their debut, still charging a higher fare (12 cents vs. 10 cents). |
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(332512) | |
Re: W.B.'s Bus Almanac for January 14th |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Jan 15 00:21:51 2019, in response to Re: W.B.'s Bus Almanac for January 14th, posted by W.B. on Mon Jan 14 19:13:10 2019. Interesting. I lived in Wash Hts and used either the 2 ,3 , 4 or 5 (which I preferred to the other 3 routes because of the Riverside Drive view) as early as the 1950s with double deckers and always recall the 15s terminating in the area of 23 St. |
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(332513) | |
Re: W.B.'s Bus Almanac for January 14th |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Jan 15 00:24:58 2019, in response to Re: W.B.'s Bus Almanac for January 14th, posted by andy on Mon Jan 14 19:37:08 2019. According to in fo I have from somewhere, FACCO always charged more than the other bus lines and the subway (10 cents vs 5) because passengers were guaranteed a seat which was easier due to the double deck buses. Of course once the double deckers were removed, the company couldn’t guarantee seats for all passengers any more. |
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(332514) | |
Re: W.B.'s Bus Almanac for January 14th |
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Posted by W.B. on Tue Jan 15 01:32:43 2019, in response to Re: W.B.'s Bus Almanac for January 14th, posted by randyo on Tue Jan 15 00:21:51 2019. Would you be privy to what point the FACO #1 (which would be discontinued in 1962) was reduced to one-trip-a-day service? I reckon it could've been some time in '57 . . . |
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(332515) | |
Re: W.B.'s Bus Almanac for January 14th |
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Posted by northshore on Tue Jan 15 08:53:13 2019, in response to Re: W.B.'s Bus Almanac for January 14th, posted by W.B. on Tue Jan 15 01:32:43 2019. I think Toute 1 was reduced to one trip a day during the WWII ODT frduction and never returned to full service. It did not appears on maps. It was only kept foor legal purposes, as the judge ruled in the NYC V. FACL that Route 1 was the only route that FACL legally owned in perpetuity. All other router were franchised extensions. |
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(332516) | |
Re: W.B.'s Bus Almanac for January 14th |
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Posted by northshore on Tue Jan 15 08:56:28 2019, in response to Re: W.B.'s Bus Almanac for January 14th, posted by randyo on Mon Jan 14 17:07:40 2019. MABSTOA extended Route 15 to Washington SQ or 8th St for a brief period but cut back because it was delaying running times and schedules could not be adhered to. Furthermore, passengers below 23 were few. |
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(332517) | |
Re: W.B.'s Bus Almanac for January 14th |
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Posted by andy on Tue Jan 15 09:11:54 2019, in response to Re: W.B.'s Bus Almanac for January 14th, posted by northshore on Tue Jan 15 08:53:13 2019. Route 1 did appear on FACO's maps, both the early 50s version and the 1958 one, which clearly showed it dashed above 110th St. with the notation "1 trip daily." The Madison Avenue routes could handle the load north of 110th Street, even when the Madison Ave. #2 route was shifted to Lenox Avenue above 116th Street in 1960. |
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(332518) | |
Re: W.B.'s Bus Almanac for January 14th |
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Posted by W.B. on Tue Jan 15 09:13:03 2019, in response to Re: W.B.'s Bus Almanac for January 14th, posted by northshore on Tue Jan 15 08:53:13 2019. None of the newspaper coverage of bus service reductions mandated by ODT, nor any service change pamphlets issued by FACCo, mentioned Rt. 1 as among those whose service was reduced, and definitely not to that degree. (Certainly not the Dec. 6, 1942 service changes; can't say about June 13, 1943.) Also, there were two different bus maps issued in 1957 by Fifth Avenue Coach Lines (after one of the many one-way conversions as between 1948 and 1966) - one of which mentioned routes straight, the other mentioned what hours some routes (all NYCO Division) did not run and highlighted "one trip daily" routes by split ( --- ) lines - which in that map were FACO Division Rt. 1 and NYCO Division Rt. 22 (that latter map may've been issued after Rt. 22 became one trip daily only, and certainly would have come at/after the time Surface Transit's M-105 became a one-trip-a-day route).It was also one of the major ironies that the Fifth and Madison one-way conversions brought back two numbers missing from certain intersections the last few years - 1 to Fifth Avenue (albeit NYCO's) and 5 to Sixth Avenue (this one the FACO route; the NYCO Division 5 became kaput in 1963). And re. Wikipedia's incorrectly noting the FACO and NYCO 1's being "merged": If any such "merger" had taken place, it would have been in secret and as a procedural formality (and folded into the NYCO 1), given that despite being rerouted to Fifth between 135th and 40th Streets, operationally the route that ran along that avenue since 1966 was 100% of NYCO pedigree (even The New York Times agreed on that). And the one FACCo route that appeared on NO bus maps whatsoever - the pull-in/pull-out only, secret, "phantom" route 10 Broadway - how did that get to survive into the early years of MaBSTOA, continuing well into the 1970's (any word on if that got a new number in the 1974 renumberings? 'WayneJay' remembers that "unseen" route as late as 1976). |
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(332519) | |
Re: W.B.'s Bus Almanac for January 14th |
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Posted by W.B. on Tue Jan 15 09:45:04 2019, in response to Re: W.B.'s Bus Almanac for January 14th, posted by andy on Tue Jan 15 09:11:54 2019. The only FACL maps I counted would have been issued in 1957 (and reflecting the recent one-way conversions of Sixth Avenue from 34th to 59th Streets, Broadway from Columbus Circle to 34th Street and Seventh Avenue from 59th Street to Times Square) and the 1958 one as you'd dated. So I would surmise it was between 1957 and 1958 that FACO Division #1 was reduced to one trip daily within that window of time. |
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(332520) | |
Re: W.B.'s Bus Almanac for January 14th |
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Posted by northshore on Tue Jan 15 10:19:44 2019, in response to Re: W.B.'s Bus Almanac for January 14th, posted by W.B. on Tue Jan 15 09:45:04 2019. The maps may have shown Route 1, but it only ran once a day |
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(332523) | |
Re: W.B.'s Bus Almanac for January 14th |
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Posted by W.B. on Tue Jan 15 10:35:04 2019, in response to Re: W.B.'s Bus Almanac for January 14th, posted by northshore on Tue Jan 15 10:19:44 2019. As 'andy' noted, the amended 1958 route map accounted for that. As they did with Route 22. |
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(332526) | |
Re: W.B.'s Bus Almanac for January 14th |
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Posted by northshore on Tue Jan 15 11:03:47 2019, in response to Re: W.B.'s Bus Almanac for January 14th, posted by W.B. on Tue Jan 15 10:35:04 2019. My point was the Route 1 had already been a once a day line. I believe since WWII |
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