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| Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus (308380) | |
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Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus |
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Posted by Joe V on Wed Nov 25 17:56:49 2015, in response to Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus, posted by JAzumah on Wed Nov 25 03:10:42 2015. So we have to charge a fare because the accountant would not know how to allocate costs ? Do we run for customers or the accountants ? They can credit some percentage of 74th Street/Jackson Heights turnstile counts to the Q70 revenue and take periodic rider bus counts to get it. |
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Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus |
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Posted by Joe V on Wed Nov 25 17:58:12 2015, in response to Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus, posted by JAzumah on Wed Nov 25 12:18:44 2015. We know perfectly well how the network works. 85% of Q70 passengers take the subway. |
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| (308473) | |
Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus |
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Posted by Joe V on Wed Nov 25 17:58:40 2015, in response to Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus, posted by N6 Limited on Tue Nov 24 20:06:09 2015. They can make it whatever they like. |
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| (308474) | |
Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus |
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Posted by Joe V on Wed Nov 25 17:59:21 2015, in response to Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus, posted by orange blossom special on Wed Nov 25 17:35:08 2015. And free roads ? Shall we put up toll booths ? |
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Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus |
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Posted by SUBWAYMAN on Wed Nov 25 18:34:32 2015, in response to Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus, posted by orange blossom special on Wed Nov 25 17:35:08 2015. How's that tax cut doing for you? |
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| (308476) | |
Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus |
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Posted by JAzumah on Wed Nov 25 19:23:08 2015, in response to Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus, posted by Joe V on Wed Nov 25 17:59:21 2015. We pay a gas tax. I don't mind it going up if they would actually build the roads to last and take care of them. The Thruway is largely in good shape because of tolling and so are the GSP and Turnpike. The transit system could largely be that good if we would be more concerned about the quality of service than the fare. Whether anyone likes it or not, the fare plays a role in the quality of service. |
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| (308477) | |
Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus |
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Posted by JAzumah on Wed Nov 25 19:25:59 2015, in response to Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus, posted by Joe V on Wed Nov 25 17:56:49 2015. Is the MTA run for the customers? On what planet? |
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| (308478) | |
Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus |
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Posted by Joe V on Wed Nov 25 19:32:09 2015, in response to Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus, posted by JAzumah on Wed Nov 25 19:25:59 2015. Well, theoretically yes.It is like SIR. The cost of fare collection, either by rebuilding almost every station to be closed with fare control, or done onboard, exceeds fare revenue foregone - bottom-line is better off this way, and they know some percentage or riders will get their MC swiped anyway on a connecting on SI bus or a subway at South Ferry. So again, all we would do with the Q70 is move he fare collection point to a subway station. Technology can count passengers boarding through all the doors, then allocate that much revenue from turnstile counts, or split 50/50 with the subway operations. Line and mode specific fare box recovery in NY is irrelevant. |
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| (308479) | |
Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus |
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Posted by Joe V on Wed Nov 25 19:34:04 2015, in response to Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus, posted by JAzumah on Wed Nov 25 19:23:08 2015. Does SIR, which has all of 2 stations with fare control, got lousier service than the R(arely) train ? The correlation between farebox recovery and service quality does not exist. |
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Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus |
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Posted by checkmatechamp13 on Wed Nov 25 19:43:31 2015, in response to Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus, posted by Joe V on Wed Nov 25 19:34:04 2015. Not sure if you're being serious or not, but the SIR runs every 30 minutes for most of the day. Much less frequent than the (R). |
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| (308481) | |
Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus |
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Posted by Joe V on Wed Nov 25 19:43:57 2015, in response to Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus, posted by SUBWAYMAN on Wed Nov 25 18:34:32 2015. The 99 percenters didn't get one. |
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Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus |
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Posted by Joe V on Wed Nov 25 19:52:09 2015, in response to Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus, posted by checkmatechamp13 on Wed Nov 25 19:43:31 2015. Yes I am being serious. Intervals are not a service quality issue, but a ridership demand and load factor issue.Schedules for the R are science fiction. |
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Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus |
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Posted by italianstallion on Wed Nov 25 23:06:42 2015, in response to Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus, posted by Joe V on Wed Nov 25 19:32:09 2015. IAWTP |
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Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus |
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Posted by checkmatechamp13 on Thu Nov 26 00:33:39 2015, in response to Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus, posted by N6 Limited on Tue Nov 24 19:13:51 2015. I think the issue is traffic on the BQE, rather than traffic within the airport. |
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Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus |
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Posted by N6 Limited on Thu Nov 26 00:43:37 2015, in response to Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus, posted by checkmatechamp13 on Thu Nov 26 00:33:39 2015. There was no traffic on the BQE nor the GCP during that period of time there was however a big gap in service and a few M60's and other buses went by. |
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Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus |
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Posted by JAzumah on Thu Nov 26 01:32:43 2015, in response to Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus, posted by Joe V on Wed Nov 25 19:34:04 2015. Yes. The SIR is a commuter railroad. Let me say that again: railroad.Does the SIR get the same treatment as Metro-North and the LIRR in terms of service quality? Is the railroad trying to promote baseball packages and promotions with the rail service? Do they advertise at all to the people that live near the train station? Are they making deals with local businesses to promote their product? Here is how the LIRR promotes itself: http://web.mta.info/lirr/getaways/ Here is how Metro-North promotes itself: http://web.mta.info/mnr/html/getaways.htm The SIR's farebox recovery ratio is around 13%, while M-N and the LIRR are around 50%. |
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Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus |
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Posted by JAzumah on Thu Nov 26 01:35:44 2015, in response to Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus, posted by Joe V on Wed Nov 25 19:52:09 2015. Intervals are not a service quality issue, but a ridership demand and load factor issue.Do you think any non-Staten Island express bus carries enough people to support a 60 minute headway off-peak and weekends? If you don't believe so, then why would the MTA run those frequencies despite not having the passengers to support it? |
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| (308490) | |
Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus |
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Posted by Joe V on Thu Nov 26 07:38:36 2015, in response to Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus, posted by JAzumah on Thu Nov 26 01:35:44 2015. So you model is to charge very high fares and run empty buses.That still has nothing to do with the Q70 issue, and your acting like we are giving away the store, which we are not when in fact free inter-modal transfers exist and 85% of the riders on this route are doing it now. |
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Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus |
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Posted by Joe V on Thu Nov 26 07:44:48 2015, in response to Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus, posted by JAzumah on Thu Nov 26 01:32:43 2015. As with PATH the customer does not care,let me say it again, passengers DO NOT CARE - that SIR is legally defined as a railroad. They pay a transit fare when they get off, and get free transfers like all the rest of the TA. As far as they are concerned, it is a subway, and do not draw parallels with the LIRR or MN, but with the rest of the subway system. "Baseball packages" are not necessary because we are not charging them $8.25 to go from Tottenville to South Ferry as the LIRR would from Kew Gardens to Penn Station. You have no solutions to get the SIR farebox recovery above 13% because fare collection is cost-prohibitive. |
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| (308492) | |
Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus |
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Posted by New Flyer #857 on Thu Nov 26 08:31:13 2015, in response to Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus, posted by Joe V on Wed Nov 25 19:32:09 2015. The Q70 is MTAB, the subway is NYCT. Not sure if that makes a difference. |
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Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus |
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Posted by New Flyer #857 on Thu Nov 26 08:31:47 2015, in response to Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus, posted by JAzumah on Wed Nov 25 19:23:08 2015. Is the gas tax meant to aid roadways? |
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Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus |
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Posted by JAzumah on Thu Nov 26 08:49:10 2015, in response to Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus, posted by Joe V on Thu Nov 26 07:38:36 2015. My model is to minimize taxpayer subsidies when possible. Money does not grow on trees.It will not kill anyone to pay $2.75 on a bus leaving the airport. It doesn't seem to hamper the M60. Why would it hamper the Q70? You can make the Q70 and other airport connecting buses more prominent on the Subway Map and the LIRR Map. You can install more MVMs at the airport. You can even add the Q70 to the ground transportation center advertising next to SuperShuttle. |
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Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus |
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Posted by JAzumah on Thu Nov 26 08:53:40 2015, in response to Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus, posted by Joe V on Thu Nov 26 07:44:48 2015. I would install SBS fare collection technology at all stations except Tottenville, Grasmere, and Tompkinsville. |
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Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus |
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Posted by JAzumah on Thu Nov 26 08:54:03 2015, in response to Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus, posted by New Flyer #857 on Thu Nov 26 08:31:47 2015. Yes. |
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Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus |
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Posted by B1bus on Thu Nov 26 11:27:15 2015, in response to Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus, posted by JAzumah on Thu Nov 26 01:32:43 2015. I used to take the LIRR getaways along time ago. Then , they were fully escorted with school buses as transfers and a lunch. Usually , it went this way: transfer, i activity, lunch, 2nd activity, sometimes free time, then train. Now, they only include cab vouchers and activity on any train you want(off peak). |
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Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus |
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Posted by Joe V on Thu Nov 26 12:24:15 2015, in response to Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus, posted by New Flyer #857 on Thu Nov 26 08:31:13 2015. With MC transfers even applying to NICE, the bean counters can figure out how to allocate revenue. |
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Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus |
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Posted by checkmatechamp13 on Thu Nov 26 16:26:21 2015, in response to Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus, posted by JAzumah on Thu Nov 26 08:53:40 2015. That would probably be confusing to passengers getting on at those stations. (Aside from that, why Tottenville, but not Eltingville or New Dorp? I assume you picked those stations because of their high ridership) |
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Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus |
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Posted by checkmatechamp13 on Thu Nov 26 16:26:46 2015, in response to Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus, posted by checkmatechamp13 on Thu Nov 26 16:26:21 2015. For that matter, I assume you intended to add St. George to that list as well. |
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Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus |
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Posted by BusMgr on Fri Nov 27 00:27:07 2015, in response to Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus, posted by New Flyer #857 on Thu Nov 26 08:31:13 2015. There would have to be internal arrangements between the MTA, NYCTA, the City, and possibly the bondholders. |
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Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus |
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Posted by Joe V on Fri Nov 27 13:51:02 2015, in response to Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus, posted by JAzumah on Thu Nov 26 08:49:10 2015. You can do all that, but for the 15% who are Bus-only or Bus-LIRR that would get a free ride, is it worth it ? |
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Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus |
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Posted by Joe V on Fri Nov 27 13:54:47 2015, in response to Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus, posted by JAzumah on Thu Nov 26 08:53:40 2015. And then you have to pay Enforcers to roam the trains 7/24/365 to catch people. Apparently, the incremental accounting does not work well.All you would do is catch some of the local riders, some of whom take the S53 and S79. MTA credits those buses with the revenue, rather than SIR. In the end, I don't think you have accomplished anything. |
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Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus |
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Posted by NIMBYkiller on Sat Nov 28 07:20:15 2015, in response to Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus, posted by Joe V on Fri Nov 27 13:51:02 2015. Well, how much money does that 15% translate to? What's the cost of installing a few MVMs at the airport? Whichever is cheaper, that's your answer |
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Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Sat Nov 28 10:36:58 2015, in response to Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus, posted by NIMBYkiller on Sat Nov 28 07:20:15 2015. The MVMs also require maintenance. That has to be considered also. |
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Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus |
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Posted by NIMBYkiller on Sat Nov 28 10:57:45 2015, in response to Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus, posted by Joe V on Tue Nov 24 17:44:38 2015. I sure hope you're not in charge of finances anywhere because your "minimal" loss is $451,687.50 a year. Unless you can get enough additional ridership to cover that using the existing schedule, you'll need a lot more additional risership than would probably be generated from this idiotic scheme |
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Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus |
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Posted by NIMBYkiller on Sat Nov 28 10:59:22 2015, in response to Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus, posted by checkmatechamp13 on Thu Nov 26 00:33:39 2015. Possibly, but LGA is a clusterfuck to say the least. Getting through there at certain times can take far too long. It strongly lacks the fluidity of JFK |
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Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus |
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Posted by NIMBYkiller on Sat Nov 28 11:00:34 2015, in response to Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus, posted by italianstallion on Tue Nov 24 17:17:30 2015. So place the MVMs at the bus stops themselves. Please, this is such a lazy argument |
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Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus |
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Posted by NIMBYkiller on Sat Nov 28 11:03:19 2015, in response to Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus, posted by Joe V on Tue Nov 24 18:03:42 2015. $451,687.50 per year. How do you propose that loss is made up? You might think it's just a drop in the bucket in the grand scheme of things, but all those little drops add up to one very full bucket |
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Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus |
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Posted by NIMBYkiller on Sat Nov 28 11:04:51 2015, in response to Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus, posted by Joe V on Wed Nov 25 17:58:12 2015. And no one has proposed how to cover the 15% loss |
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Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus |
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Posted by NIMBYkiller on Sat Nov 28 11:08:12 2015, in response to Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus, posted by Joe V on Wed Nov 25 19:32:09 2015. Wait, you're using the argument of a system that would require fare collection infrastructure be installed against a system where the fare collection infrastructure is already in place? And then you want to spend money on technology to count the passengers? Dude, really? |
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Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus |
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Posted by NIMBYkiller on Sat Nov 28 11:12:11 2015, in response to Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus, posted by italianstallion on Tue Nov 24 17:20:04 2015. You're going to have to determine what the additional cost of the added schedules is and what the additional revenue from the passenger increase would be before you can say his argument is actually in favor of free service. As it stands, free service would result in a yearly loss of $451,687.50. You'd first have to generate the enough additional ridership on the existing service level to cover that loss before you can even think of adding any extra service to the line |
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Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus |
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Posted by NIMBYkiller on Sat Nov 28 13:06:41 2015, in response to Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus, posted by BrooklynBus on Sat Nov 28 10:36:58 2015. Okay then, add that in |
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Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus |
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Posted by BusMgr on Sat Nov 28 13:41:37 2015, in response to Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus, posted by NIMBYkiller on Sat Nov 28 11:04:51 2015. A small portion of it would be offset by not incurring the incremental cost of collecting Q70 revenue.Ultimately, it seems to me that this is a question of what LaGuardia offers its users as amenities, and the most persuasive argument might be equality. For motorists, LaGuardia offers "free" bus service between the passenger terminals and the parking lots. For taxi users, LaGuardia offers "free" dispatching service. "Equality" might mean either (1) no fare on the Q70 bus service between the passenger terminals and the subway station, or (2) collecting a fee from passengers using the bus service between the passenger terminals and the parking lots, and from passengers using the airport taxi dispatch service. In any case, given that these schemes are for the purpose of providing amenities at LaGuardia, the cost is properly attributable to the PANYNJ, not the MTA. |
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Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus |
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Posted by NIMBYkiller on Sat Nov 28 14:15:19 2015, in response to Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus, posted by BusMgr on Sat Nov 28 13:41:37 2015. The fare being paid for the means of conveyance is built to include the cost of supporting services such as dispatching. While you don't see it in person, the bus also has a dispatching service, so the point between those two is moot. The bus between airport points is a supporting service who's funding is generated through airport usage fees. Now, if you want to pass a chunk of those airport usage fees to cover the 15% on the Q70, be my guest, but I doubt you'll get the PA to agree.Also, I'd be curious to know the cost of the fare collection process |
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Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus |
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Posted by Joe V on Sat Nov 28 14:38:10 2015, in response to Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus, posted by NIMBYkiller on Sat Nov 28 10:57:45 2015. It will cost them a third of that to buy just 1 Metrocard machine. They need several of them. Then someone has to go off the subway beaten PATH to service the. Then a repair man to do the same when they break down. Figure wage/benefit package off $100K for each 1-shift employee per year. |
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Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus |
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Posted by Joe V on Sat Nov 28 14:39:24 2015, in response to Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus, posted by NIMBYkiller on Sat Nov 28 11:00:34 2015. There are no MVM's at any bus stop anywhere in the city. |
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Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus |
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Posted by Joe V on Sat Nov 28 14:39:53 2015, in response to Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus, posted by NIMBYkiller on Sat Nov 28 11:03:19 2015. Start looking at the cost to collect that half million per year. |
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Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus |
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Posted by Joe V on Sat Nov 28 14:41:32 2015, in response to Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus, posted by NIMBYkiller on Sat Nov 28 11:08:12 2015. Technology to count heads entering a bus is nothing compared to servicing MVM's. |
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Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus |
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Posted by Joe V on Sat Nov 28 14:42:45 2015, in response to Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus, posted by NIMBYkiller on Sat Nov 28 11:12:11 2015. There are Artic buses. |
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Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus |
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Posted by checkmatechamp13 on Sat Nov 28 17:08:45 2015, in response to Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus, posted by Joe V on Wed Nov 25 19:52:09 2015. It's apples to oranges, though. The (R) is a long line stretching across 3 boroughs and merging with multiple other lines. The SIR is a line that only covers one borough, and has no merges with any other lines. |
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Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus |
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Posted by checkmatechamp13 on Sat Nov 28 17:17:22 2015, in response to Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus, posted by JAzumah on Thu Nov 26 01:35:44 2015. The BxM7 is approximately as cost-efficient as the X1, and at some points, it runs every 20 minutes on Saturdays, so I'd assume it justifies its headways.With the exception of the BxM4, all of the Bronx express routes are fairly efficient. Now the BMs on the other hand... |
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