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| Former Bx3, now Bx17, on Prospect Ave. (305560) | |
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Former Bx3, now Bx17, on Prospect Ave. |
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Posted by Joe on Thu May 28 13:13:40 2015 In towns across our country, the name Prospect Avenue has a snooty air, when wealthier people once could live on a higher, airy street. So, what was so great about Prospect Avenue, the 1920's bus route that Surface Transportation operated, now the Bx17? In "History in Asphalt," John McNamara wrote it was named for the fine prospect (view) it afforded of the East River, and of the excursion steamers that sailed past.--- Wikipedia states that the New York Department of Plant and Structures began the route in 1921. As with the Concourse buses, it ran on streets that did not have trolley service and which had residences that provided revenue passengers: Prospect Avenue, Crotona Avenue, and East 187th Street. It connected Belmont with Fordham, and people could ride the bus south to the Prospect movie house near the IRT that then offered three routes downtown, the Lex, the Broadway-7th Avenue, and the el. --- For some reason, the NYCTA moved the northern tip of the line from East 184th Street to Fordham Road. At some point, the southern tip was moved to St. Ann's Avenue, replacing the Bx32. |
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Re: Former Bx3, now Bx17, on Prospect Ave. |
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Posted by Larry,RedbirdR33 on Thu May 28 18:36:10 2015, in response to Former Bx3, now Bx17, on Prospect Ave., posted by Joe on Thu May 28 13:13:40 2015. Joe: That's an excellent and informative post. Keep up the good work.Larry, RedbirdR33 |
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Re: Former Bx3, now Bx17, on Prospect Ave. |
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Posted by Joe on Thu May 28 19:24:29 2015, in response to Re: Former Bx3, now Bx17, on Prospect Ave., posted by Larry,RedbirdR33 on Thu May 28 18:36:10 2015. Thanks for the encouragement, Larry. In the mid-1940's, Dad brought me on each Bronx trolley line, but only on a few bus lines when needed. I am trying to review in numerical order each Surface Transportation bus line that was not a trolley line. Some are easy to recall because we had to use them, such as the Bx6(A,B, or C?) to visit cousins at their summer house on Locust Point.--- My only trip on the Prospect Avenue bus was in 2011 to describe --- The library system has at least one captivating biography or autobiography of growing up near Prospect Avenue. It may have been Samuel Freedman's "Who She Was; My Search for my Mother's Life." |
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Re: Former Bx3, now Bx17, on Prospect Ave. |
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Posted by Larry,RedbirdR33 on Thu May 28 19:49:38 2015, in response to Re: Former Bx3, now Bx17, on Prospect Ave., posted by Joe on Thu May 28 19:24:29 2015. I have a fair amount of information on The Bronx bus and trolley lines. If you need any help you can always e-mail me. Its nice to hear from someone who also has "History in Asphalt."Larry, RedbirdR33 |
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Re: Former Bx3, now Bx17, on Prospect Ave. |
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Posted by Joe on Thu May 28 20:48:46 2015, in response to Former Bx3, now Bx17, on Prospect Ave., posted by Joe on Thu May 28 13:13:40 2015. BusTalk Gallery has a Steve Zabel photograph of Flxible 7891 northbound on Prospect Avenue on May 5, 1981.Link --- In the distant background is the Westchester Avenue IRT and the site of the Prospect movie house. --- The red destination sign on this Bx3 reads 3 AV, a bit misleading as Third Avenue runs parallel to Prospect Ave., less than a half-mile west. Fordham Plaza is a more informative destination sign. |
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Re: Former Bx3, now Bx17, on Prospect Ave. |
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Posted by WayneJay on Fri May 29 00:05:59 2015, in response to Re: Former Bx3, now Bx17, on Prospect Ave., posted by Joe on Thu May 28 20:48:46 2015. Agreed! That sign reading was a bit misleading. Even the older blue dest. sign listed that reading as a more informative... "Bx3 Fordham Plz" |
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Re: Former Bx3, now Bx17, on Prospect Ave. |
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Posted by WayneJay on Fri May 29 00:05:59 2015, in response to Re: Former Bx3, now Bx17, on Prospect Ave., posted by Joe on Thu May 28 20:48:46 2015. Agreed! That sign reading was a bit misleading. Even the older blue dest. sign listed that reading as a more informative... "Bx3 Fordham Plz" |
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Re: Former Bx3, now Bx17, on Prospect Ave. |
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Posted by Larry,RedbirdR33 on Fri May 29 07:35:11 2015, in response to Re: Former Bx3, now Bx17, on Prospect Ave., posted by Joe on Thu May 28 20:48:46 2015. The red destination sign on this Bx3 reads 3 AV, a bit misleading as Third Avenue runs parallel to Prospect Ave., less than a half-mile west. Fordham Plaza is a more informative destination sign.As you know Fordham Plaza is the name given to the intersection of Park Avenue , 3 Avenue and Fordham Road. Less well known is Fordham Square where Webster Avenue crosses Fordham Road. A little bit of Bronx history. Larry, RedbirdR33 |
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Re: Former Bx3, now Bx17, on Prospect Ave. |
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Posted by WayneJay on Fri May 29 09:09:57 2015, in response to Re: Former Bx3, now Bx17, on Prospect Ave., posted by Larry,RedbirdR33 on Fri May 29 07:35:11 2015. Interesting. I never knew Fordham/Webster was Fordham Square. Kinda funny that Fordham Square is like a couple hundred feet from Fordham Plaza. |
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Re: Former Bx3, now Bx17, on Prospect Ave. |
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Posted by caine515 on Fri May 29 11:36:47 2015, in response to Re: Former Bx3, now Bx17, on Prospect Ave., posted by Joe on Thu May 28 20:48:46 2015. I liked the 7800 series but didn't see them much in Brooklyn. I remember the 7100s and 7500 series. |
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Re: Former Bx3, now Bx17, on Prospect Ave. |
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Posted by jimmymc25 on Fri May 29 21:41:02 2015, in response to Re: Former Bx3, now Bx17, on Prospect Ave., posted by WayneJay on Fri May 29 00:05:59 2015. I always remember seeing Fordham PlzJimmymc25 |
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Re: Former Bx3, now Bx17, on Prospect Ave. |
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Posted by WayneJay on Sat May 30 12:45:30 2015, in response to Re: Former Bx3, now Bx17, on Prospect Ave., posted by caine515 on Fri May 29 11:36:47 2015. Those '75 Flxibles (7500-7659, 7700-7927) were my least favorite:-). |
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Re: Former Bx3, now Bx17, on Prospect Ave. |
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Posted by Joe on Sat May 30 21:23:55 2015, in response to Former Bx3, now Bx17, on Prospect Ave., posted by Joe on Thu May 28 13:13:40 2015. I used to think that it was Surface Transportation that got the idea of running feeder bus lines in The Bronx. However, it turns out that a main instigator was John Hylan and his intense dislike of traction companies. Soon after he became mayor in 1918, he began to see "emergencies" in which people in newer apartment-house neighborhoods or the outer boroughs lacked transportation to the subways or els. He appointed Grover Whalen Commissioner of Plants and Structures, and under that agency supervised new bus routes. It seemed to be some sort of partnership with Tammany's friends, who apparently owned the vehicles. By 1922, the courts began to make judgments against this "emergency" situation, a bit like President Obama's unilateral decisions on immigration are now getting knocked down. In 1926 and 1927 five companies or investors applied for the Plants and Structures routes, and in late 1927 Surface Transportation received all or most of the Bronx franchises.--- The title of the lengthy 10.5.1922 article is "Injunction Ties Up All City Bus Lines." The list included (among many other routes) these: Dyckman Street, Washington Heights, Jerome Avene, Prospect Avenue, Fort Schuyler, Pelham Bay - City Island, West Farms - City Island. |
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Re: Former Bx3, now Bx17, on Prospect Ave. |
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Posted by B53RICH on Sun May 31 07:48:34 2015, in response to Re: Former Bx3, now Bx17, on Prospect Ave., posted by WayneJay on Sat May 30 12:45:30 2015. Would have been interesting if the busoramas were installed. |
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Re: Former Bx3, now Bx17, on Prospect Ave. |
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Posted by SubBus aka ENY Local on Sun May 31 10:23:31 2015, in response to Former Bx3, now Bx17, on Prospect Ave., posted by Joe on Thu May 28 13:13:40 2015. I heard a story about a Bronx bus route that was changed because of an incident that happened along the route. This was back in the day. Supposedly, one group if people didn't want the bus to come through the block because it was carrying a certain group of people....This old Bx3 sounds like the route........ |
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Re: Former Bx3, now Bx17, on Prospect Ave. |
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Posted by Joe on Mon Jun 1 10:09:14 2015, in response to Former Bx3, now Bx17, on Prospect Ave., posted by Joe on Thu May 28 13:13:40 2015. The NY Times on September 15, 1927, ran a nine-paragraph news story about a key moment in Surface Transportation Corporation history. The headline reads "Bronx Bus Routes Approved by Board; Certificates are granted to Surface Company for Twelve Lines."Link --- The article gives the list in paragraph form, which I change to a numbered list to show how it approximates twelve routes we knew in the 1940's. 1) From the Grand Concourse to 138th Street. 2) From the Grand Concourse to the Hub. 3) The Prospect Avenue line. 4) The Jerome and Bainbridge Avenue line. 5) From City Island to West Farms. 6) The Throggs Neck line. 7) The Boston Road line. 8) The Williamsbridge Road line. 9) The Eastchester Road line. 10) The Riverdale Avenue line. 11) The 170th Street crosstown line. 12) The City Island - Fordham line. --- The NY Times search tool has also brought up other helpful tidbits, for example a map of Fifth Avenue Coach's earlier proposal of takeover and modification of Plant & Structure routes, some at different fares. --- I also encountered demands by the wartime gasoline and rubber federal authorities that routes be cut back when duplicating trolley routes or near them. However, those news items lack route details. |
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Re: Former Bx3, now Bx17, on Prospect Ave. |
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Posted by Joe on Mon Jun 1 14:24:00 2015, in response to Re: Former Bx3, now Bx17, on Prospect Ave., posted by Joe on Mon Jun 1 10:09:14 2015. A bit off-thread, but I must clarify that it was the Office of Defense Transportation that ordered the cessation of some bus services that had proliferated during the Second World War. The context seems to be that individual apartment houses or clusters thereof were hiring private carriers to bring people to their jobs, and the ODT judged that the riders should walk to rail service. Rail used coal or electricity made from coal, not petroleum. Buses used gasoline and rubber, commodities that more suffered wartime shortages.--- The New York Times of March 12, 1943, ran an article headlined "Apartment Buses Face Shut-Down." It lists Club Transportation as a provider of duplicative services in Riverdale (and apparently Westchester) and gives a rebuttal from Club's president, J. H. Pansky. Surface Transportation also was told to cut back on services where people could walk to a train, but strangely a year later, when ODT relented and instructed Surface to resume service, Surface asked the PSC to allow them to refuse! In Queens, Malba and some Rockaway locations had bus service banned by the ODT. |
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Re: Former Bx3, now Bx17, on Prospect Ave. |
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Posted by northshore on Mon Jun 1 21:21:59 2015, in response to Re: Former Bx3, now Bx17, on Prospect Ave., posted by Joe on Mon Jun 1 14:24:00 2015. The Malba Shuttle did not start operations until after WWII. Fifth Avenue Coach eliminated service on the Route 16 Elmhurst Crosstown from 1942-45. |
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Re: Former Bx3, now Bx17, on Prospect Ave. |
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Posted by italianstallion on Tue Jun 2 10:12:48 2015, in response to Re: Former Bx3, now Bx17, on Prospect Ave., posted by Larry,RedbirdR33 on Thu May 28 19:49:38 2015. I have that book too! |
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Re: Former Bx3, now Bx17, on Prospect Ave. |
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Posted by Joe on Tue Jun 2 16:09:09 2015, in response to Former Bx3, now Bx17, on Prospect Ave., posted by Joe on Thu May 28 13:13:40 2015. Bonanza.com has for sale a roller sign that appears to me from a pre-war Surface Transportion bus, one clue being the lack of the Bx prefix that I knew on signs on post-war Bronx buses.Link --- On the other hand, the designation 6B Throgg's Neck Stadium has me wondering, as John McNamara dates the name change from German Stadium to the period of the Second World War. My memory could be faulty, but I remember the branch as German Stadium. --- The sign on the website has the 12 routes, no Morris Avenue, no Willis Avenue, streetcar routes that were converted in 1940. |
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Re: Former Bx3, now Bx17, on Prospect Ave. |
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Posted by SubBus aka ENY Local on Wed Jun 3 13:05:52 2015, in response to Former Bx3, now Bx17, on Prospect Ave., posted by Joe on Thu May 28 13:13:40 2015. I heard a story about a Bronx bus route that was changed because of an incident that happened along the route. This was back in the day. Supposedly, one group if people didn't want the bus to come through the block because it was carrying a certain group of people....This old Bx3 sounds like the route........ |
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Re: Former Bx3, now Bx17, on Prospect Ave. |
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Posted by Joe on Thu Jun 4 13:51:46 2015, in response to Former Bx3, now Bx17, on Prospect Ave., posted by Joe on Thu May 28 13:13:40 2015. Thanks to Larry, here are some dates regarding the Fordham Square, Fordham Plaza, location:1841 -- The New York and Harlem Railroad reached Fordham, two tracks on the surface. 1888 to 1890 -- The line was expanded to four tracks and placed in an open cut. 1901 -- The Suburban Railway (Elevated) line reached Fordham Road. 1902 -- The elevated was extended to Bronx Park. About 1916 -- The Fordham El station was converted from two tracks (one island platform) to three tracks (two island platforms). 1920 -- The Contract III Webster Avenue line opened. 1924 -- Perhaps the date of the New York Central ticket office building. --- --- My reference was to an Joe |
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Re: Former Bx3, now Bx17, on Prospect Ave. |
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Posted by Joe on Sat Jun 6 15:12:41 2015, in response to Former Bx3, now Bx17, on Prospect Ave., posted by Joe on Thu May 28 13:13:40 2015. I recognize that maps of established routes are more helpful than maps of proposals. However, this map of proposals by the Fifth Avenue Coach Company printed with an extensive article in the Sunday New York Times of August 24, 1914, may hint at routes of what was earlier or later operated in fact by others.Link --- It shows the Prospect Avenue line as a proposed ten-cent line from the Fort Lee Ferry, across the Madison Avenue Bridge, then 149th Street, Prospect Avenue, a swerve around the east side of Crotona Park, and Crotona Avenue to a terminal at Crotona and Fordham Road. I think the sole Bronx routes ever operated by Fifth Avenue Coach in the 1920's were the Concourse routes. This map also shows the service from West Farms to City Island, which is referred to in other articles of the 1920's. |
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Re: Former Bx3, now Bx17, on Prospect Ave. |
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Posted by Joe on Tue Jul 21 11:29:45 2015, in response to Former Bx3, now Bx17, on Prospect Ave., posted by Joe on Thu May 28 13:13:40 2015. Found on Flickr, as posted by Herbert Maruska, a clear photo of Surface Transportation Mack 1973 at Fordham Plaza, about to begin its run south to 133rd Street. I appreciate the clear view of the route and destination signs. |
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Re: Former Bx3, now Bx17, on Prospect Ave. |
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Posted by WayneJay on Tue Jul 21 15:55:05 2015, in response to Re: Former Bx3, now Bx17, on Prospect Ave., posted by Joe on Tue Jul 21 11:29:45 2015. It wasn't 138th Street? I remember the Bx3 south terminal being 138th-Jackson Ave until it became the Bx17 was extended. |
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Re: Former Bx3, now Bx17, on Prospect Ave. |
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Posted by Joe on Tue Jul 21 16:29:06 2015, in response to Re: Former Bx3, now Bx17, on Prospect Ave., posted by WayneJay on Tue Jul 21 15:55:05 2015. @WayneJayThanks for the correction! Joe |
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