|
|
| Montreal's all-electric future (301696) | |
 |
|
| Home > BusChat | |
[ Post a New Response | Return to the Index ]
|
| (301696) | |
Montreal's all-electric future |
|
|
Posted by WillD on Thu Jan 1 08:58:53 2015 Saw this on STB. Kudos to them for rejecting the nat gas scam. |
|
|
| (301697) | |
Re: Montreal's all-electric future |
|
|
Posted by ChicagoMotorman on Thu Jan 1 10:25:15 2015, in response to Montreal's all-electric future, posted by WillD on Thu Jan 1 08:58:53 2015. Very interesting. Thank you |
|
|
| (301704) | |
Re: Montreal's all-electric future |
|
|
Posted by NIMBYkiller on Thu Jan 1 14:48:27 2015, in response to Montreal's all-electric future, posted by WillD on Thu Jan 1 08:58:53 2015. Nice. Now if only solar could provide a chunk of the energy needed, but one step at a time |
|
|
| (301738) | |
Re: Montreal's all-electric future |
|
|
Posted by WillD on Fri Jan 2 08:27:26 2015, in response to Re: Montreal's all-electric future, posted by NIMBYkiller on Thu Jan 1 14:48:27 2015. I'm not sure why you'd want that. Of the 40 or so GW supplied by Hydro-Quebec all but about 2 GW is sourced from hydropower. Solar isn't going to be appreciably cleaner than that. Also, that far north, and with the snowfalls they get solar would require larger arrays and be less useful than installations further south in the US, and those already have poor economic cases. |
|
|
| (301739) | |
Re: Montreal's all-electric future |
|
|
Posted by Scrabbleship on Fri Jan 2 09:07:06 2015, in response to Montreal's all-electric future, posted by WillD on Thu Jan 1 08:58:53 2015. They could've gotten a head start had they not dismantled their ETB network when the Metro opened. |
|
|
| (301740) | |
Re: Montreal's all-electric future |
|
|
Posted by NIMBYkiller on Fri Jan 2 09:17:41 2015, in response to Re: Montreal's all-electric future, posted by WillD on Fri Jan 2 08:27:26 2015. Good point about the climate. What's the poor economics of solar in the south? |
|
|
| (301782) | |
Re: Montreal's all-electric future |
|
|
Posted by WillD on Sun Jan 4 02:24:53 2015, in response to Re: Montreal's all-electric future, posted by NIMBYkiller on Fri Jan 2 09:17:41 2015. It's not economically viable without massive tax credits. |
|
|
| (301784) | |
Re: Montreal's all-electric future |
|
|
Posted by WillD on Sun Jan 4 03:10:56 2015, in response to Re: Montreal's all-electric future, posted by Scrabbleship on Fri Jan 2 09:07:06 2015. This is true. But it's also worth noting that starting new allows them to build a much more efficient network. If you notice in the video they show a lack of special wire work at the intersections. It looks like they'll lower the poles, proceed on auxiliary power through the intersection, then raise poles on the other side. It should save a lot of money in the installation while reducing visual clutter. There's also the power distribution system, which can be built new from the ground up with regenerative power in mind, as opposed to older systems designed solely to supply trolleys with resistive dynamic brakes. |
|
|
| (301936) | |
Re: Montreal's all-electric future |
|
|
Posted by Dan Lawrence on Thu Jan 8 22:27:49 2015, in response to Montreal's all-electric future, posted by WillD on Thu Jan 1 08:58:53 2015. That is truth. Electric beats diesel every time. |
|
|
| (301942) | |
Re: Montreal's all-electric future |
|
|
Posted by TerrapiN StatioN on Thu Jan 8 23:41:27 2015, in response to Re: Montreal's all-electric future, posted by Dan Lawrence on Thu Jan 8 22:27:49 2015. Electric beats diesel every time.WADL. And diesel has nothing to do with natural gas in this context. |
|
|
| (301943) | |
Re: Montreal's all-electric future |
|
|
Posted by Stephen Bauman on Fri Jan 9 00:08:06 2015, in response to Montreal's all-electric future, posted by WillD on Thu Jan 1 08:58:53 2015. I was living in Boston, when they ditched the trackless trolley fleet (except for the lines that used the tunnel at Harvard Square). The reason given was they were bad snow fighters. They could not put chains on the tires because of danger of an electric shock. It looks like they need to use chains to get through the snow in Montreal. |
|
|
| (301945) | |
Re: Montreal's all-electric future |
|
|
Posted by RailBus63 on Fri Jan 9 12:18:53 2015, in response to Re: Montreal's all-electric future, posted by Stephen Bauman on Fri Jan 9 00:08:06 2015. Boston's MTA ditched its trackless trolleys in the early 1960's because then-general manager Thomas McLernon was a notorious cheapskate who thought that diesel buses would be cheaper to operate. |
|
|
| (301948) | |
Re: Montreal's all-electric future |
|
|
Posted by Stephen Bauman on Fri Jan 9 13:17:29 2015, in response to Re: Montreal's all-electric future, posted by RailBus63 on Fri Jan 9 12:18:53 2015. They were ditched in 1961 which was before McLernon came on board. The trackless trolleys were were a disaster during the 29" blizzard of January 1960. Buses had to be substituted for the trackless trolleys. This was the case for the Mass Ave trackless trolley that served MIT.McLernon screwed me and many other riders with the fare hike. It used to be you could get to anywhere on the system with on a 20 cent fare. Local fares were 15 cents. McLernon lowered the local fare to 10 cents but eliminated transfers. I took an apartment in Allston my first year in grad school. It was an easy commute to MIT. I took the Commonwealth Ave trolley to Mass Station and changed for the Mass Avenue bus. Cost was 20 cents. That doubled to 40 cents under the fare rise. I could keep it down to 30 cents by changing for the Harvard-Ashmont Line at Park St, getting off at Kendall and walking. The walk from Kendall was a lot better than counting Smoots on the Harvard Bridge. I was earning subsistence wages as a Research or Teaching Assistant. Every penny was precious in those days. |
|
|
| (301949) | |
Re: Montreal's all-electric future |
|
|
Posted by RailBus63 on Fri Jan 9 14:53:58 2015, in response to Re: Montreal's all-electric future, posted by Stephen Bauman on Fri Jan 9 13:17:29 2015. McLernon became the MTA general manager in July 1960. |
|
|
| (301950) | |
Re: Montreal's all-electric future |
|
|
Posted by RailBus63 on Fri Jan 9 14:56:26 2015, in response to Re: Montreal's all-electric future, posted by Stephen Bauman on Fri Jan 9 13:17:29 2015. McLernon became the MTA general manager in July 1960, although the authority had already begun moving away from the trackless trolleys by then. The trackless lines were converted in several waves from 1960 to 1963 as two large orders of GM New Look buses came into service. |
|
|
| (301961) | |
Re: Montreal's all-electric future |
|
|
Posted by WillD on Sat Jan 10 01:58:39 2015, in response to Re: Montreal's all-electric future, posted by Stephen Bauman on Fri Jan 9 00:08:06 2015. That's an interesting justification, and great commentary in the video. But I'm pretty sure Seattle, Vancouver, and Edmonton have all operated trolleybuses in snowy conditions with chains. Heck, Seattle and Vancouver's trolleybuses climb some fairly considerable hills, so chains are an absolute requirement. I'm not sure about Dayton's trolleybus fleet.Even with the chains the hills of Seattle can bring a trolleybus to its knees: |
|
|
| (301963) | |
Re: Montreal's all-electric future |
|
|
Posted by Stephen Bauman on Sat Jan 10 09:20:15 2015, in response to Re: Montreal's all-electric future, posted by WillD on Sat Jan 10 01:58:39 2015. There are a couple of other possibilities why trackless trolleys are such poor snow fighters.First, the DC torque vs. rpm profile. It's maximum torque at 0 rpm. That's a sure prescription for skidding from a stop. The trick on a manual transmission is to start in a higher gear and lug the engine. That's possible to implement for AC traction motors. I don't know if that's done. Second, traction motors use forced air cooling. If salt is used to melt the ice, the brine will be sucked up by the air intake. It will short out the motors. That might be what happened to the Seattle trackless trolley in that video. I did not notice the rear wheels skidding out. The conclusion was the tow truck was supplying all the motive power. I did perceive irregularities in the tire profile that I conclude were chains. That would contradict the theory that trackless trolleys cannot use chains. However, I saw plastic chains on the NYCT buses last year. That would eliminate the shock hazard. These were not around in the early 1960's. |
|
|
| (301964) | |
Re: Montreal's all-electric future |
|
|
Posted by Stephen Bauman on Sat Jan 10 09:31:06 2015, in response to Re: Montreal's all-electric future, posted by RailBus63 on Fri Jan 9 14:56:26 2015. McLernon became the MTA general manager in July 1960You are correct. I should have verified this before making my post. although the authority had already begun moving away from the trackless trolleys by then. The trackless lines were converted in several waves from 1960 to 1963... McLernon got embroiled with the unions a little after the time I stated he came on board. The union retaliated by refusing to use the new buses before the normal seasonal schedule change. The result was the trackless trolleys kept running for a few months longer than management planned. |
|
|
| (301966) | |
Re: Montreal's all-electric future |
|
|
Posted by Joe V on Sun Jan 11 12:33:12 2015, in response to Re: Montreal's all-electric future, posted by Stephen Bauman on Sat Jan 10 09:20:15 2015. "If salt is used to melt the ice, the brine will be sucked up by the air intake. It will short out the motors. That might be what happened to the Seattle trackless trolley in that video"They don't use salt in Seattle - they don't want it running off into Puget Sound. That's a reason why they have a hard time with ice. |
|
|
| (302660) | |
Re: Montreal's all-electric future |
|
|
Posted by Dan Lawrence on Fri Feb 6 20:03:20 2015, in response to Re: Montreal's all-electric future, posted by TerrapiN StatioN on Thu Jan 8 23:41:27 2015. Another wrong post. Electric vehicles use either batteries or overhead trolley wires. |
|
|
| (302661) | |
Re: Montreal's all-electric future |
|
|
Posted by The Silence on Sat Feb 7 10:44:30 2015, in response to Re: Montreal's all-electric future, posted by Dan Lawrence on Fri Feb 6 20:03:20 2015. and where does that power come from? Not every transit agency has Hydro-Quebec to rely on... |
|
|
| (302688) | |
Re: Montreal's all-electric future |
|
|
Posted by BrianB on Sun Feb 8 22:50:46 2015, in response to Re: Montreal's all-electric future, posted by Joe V on Sun Jan 11 12:33:12 2015. They actually started using salt in WA state about 2 years ago, after the hipster transplants raked then-mayor McGinn over the coals for not being able to keep the streets clear during a nasty multi-day snowstorm.Being as hipsters are from Ohio (particularly Columbus and its environs), where salt is king, they were like "why do they dump sand and volcanic rock onto our roads here"? And so, McGinn, not wanting to hurt his hipster cred, said "Hey, let's use salt, Puget Sound and Lake Washington (the real salt risk) be damned. |
|
|