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What I learned riding the B4 and how the MTA loses money

Posted by BrooklynBus on Mon May 21 19:33:33 2012

Sheepshead Bites blog

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Re: What I learned riding the B4 and how the MTA loses money

Posted by Mr RT on Tue May 22 07:24:52 2012, in response to What I learned riding the B4 and how the MTA loses money, posted by BrooklynBus on Mon May 21 19:33:33 2012.

Well, what you learned wasn't a revoluation.

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Re: What I learned riding the B4 and how the MTA loses money

Posted by RailBus63 on Tue May 22 09:08:32 2012, in response to What I learned riding the B4 and how the MTA loses money, posted by BrooklynBus on Mon May 21 19:33:33 2012.

Interior advertising in buses is dead in almost every city where I've ridden buses over the past few years. I think TCAT in Ithaca does have some success selling this ad space, but for most others the only ads you tend to see are government public service announcements and the agency's own blurbs. I think even advertisers look down on people who ride buses.

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Re: What I learned riding the B4 and how the MTA loses money

Posted by BrooklynBus on Tue May 22 12:38:25 2012, in response to Re: What I learned riding the B4 and how the MTA loses money, posted by RailBus63 on Tue May 22 09:08:32 2012.

But the question is what are the terms? Do you have to advertise on every bus in the city and how much does it cost? Doesn't it make sense to lower the asking price to a point where potential advertisers like local businesses would be interested? A local bakery in Brooklyn doesnt want to send money on advertising on buses in the Bronx, but he would. Interested on buses in his neighborhood.

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Re: What I learned riding the B4 and how the MTA loses money

Posted by AMoreira81 on Tue May 22 12:43:23 2012, in response to What I learned riding the B4 and how the MTA loses money, posted by BrooklynBus on Mon May 21 19:33:33 2012.

One thing I think that should happen is: Extend the B4 to Kings Plaza, and then move the route to Flatbush Depot, where the deadhead is only 2-3 minutes. New ridership would be generated because a transit desert would receive service to a major shopping destination. In short, make the B4 the underbelly of the B9.

Curious: are B4 put-ins from Bay Ridge or Coney Island/Sheepshead Bay (not counting the school tripper run #6)?

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Re: What I learned riding the B4 and how the MTA loses money

Posted by Terrapin Station on Tue May 22 12:52:38 2012, in response to Re: What I learned riding the B4 and how the MTA loses money, posted by BrooklynBus on Tue May 22 12:38:25 2012.



Do you have to advertise on every bus in the city and how much does it cost?

Seriously????

Doesn't it make sense to lower the asking price to a point where potential advertisers like local businesses would be interested? A local bakery in Brooklyn doesnt want to send money on advertising on buses in the Bronx, but he would. Interested on buses in his neighborhood.

Don't you think that's already what they do? They obviously have to have some kind of a minimum, because otherwise they wouldn't make any money off the deal. But I think it is QUITE obvious that the minimum is less than "every bus in the system"!

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Re: What I learned riding the B4 and how the MTA loses money

Posted by BrooklynBus on Tue May 22 13:19:35 2012, in response to Re: What I learned riding the B4 and how the MTA loses money, posted by Terrapin Station on Tue May 22 12:52:38 2012.

Maybe you can advertise on 1000 buses and not on 6000. That still doesn't help someone if he only wants to advertise in southern Brooklyn for example and 800 of those buses are operating elsewhere. He would only be getting 200 buses but paying for 1000 so he decides it's not worth it.

You don't have any more information than me so stop guessing and pease don't ask me to ask them what their terms are if I am so interested.

The point I was making is that if the terms were favorable and the rates were reasonable 95% of th space would not be empty and thy could get more revenue. And after 30 or more years of lost revenue, the monies lost have been considerable and could have paid for service that was eliminated. When I was a kid, every one of those advertising spaces were taken bringing in revenue.

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Re: What I learned riding the B4 and how the MTA loses money

Posted by BrooklynBus on Tue May 22 13:22:01 2012, in response to Re: What I learned riding the B4 and how the MTA loses money, posted by AMoreira81 on Tue May 22 12:43:23 2012.

The two put ins I saw were put in at Knapp Street. That is a ridiculous distance from Jackie Gleason for a put in.

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Re: What I learned riding the B4 and how the MTA loses money

Posted by AMoreira81 on Tue May 22 13:44:36 2012, in response to Re: What I learned riding the B4 and how the MTA loses money, posted by BrooklynBus on Tue May 22 13:22:01 2012.

If you're putting in from Knapp Street, why not run the bus in service from Kings Plaza?

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Re: What I learned riding the B4 and how the MTA loses money

Posted by BrooklynBus on Tue May 22 14:42:24 2012, in response to Re: What I learned riding the B4 and how the MTA loses money, posted by AMoreira81 on Tue May 22 13:44:36 2012.

Exactly, but it doesn't come out of Flatbush. And there aren't put ins all day long.

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Re: What I learned riding the B4 and how the MTA loses money

Posted by RailBus63 on Tue May 22 15:50:03 2012, in response to Re: What I learned riding the B4 and how the MTA loses money, posted by BrooklynBus on Tue May 22 12:38:25 2012.

I've noticed differences in exterior ads from one borough to the next, so there must be options available based on location.

I don't know the economics of the bus advertising field but I would assume the trick would be to keep the fees low enough to be attractive to small local busnesses while still covering costs and raising some revenue. You would need a person or two out selling the ads in each borough. Most small businesspersons will not have artwork ready in the carcard format so the sales person or an administrative person would need to help them get it ready for printing. Once the sale is made, someone needs to coordinate getting the advertisement to the printer and ultimately to the correct depot. Printing costs must be covered as well as the salary of the person who installs the advertisements in buses each night and removes outdated ads. Even if we kept these expenses to a bare minimum, I'm guessing you would need a minimum of five people running this operation for each borough, plus printing expenses and recycling costs to dispose of the old ads. At $100 per month you would probably need 400 to 500 customers a month just to break even.

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Re: What I learned riding the B4 and how the MTA loses money

Posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Tue May 22 16:45:21 2012, in response to What I learned riding the B4 and how the MTA loses money, posted by BrooklynBus on Mon May 21 19:33:33 2012.

What are they charging and what are the terms? Do you have to take out an ad for an entire year and advertise on every bus in the city? Are the rates charged higher than what the market is willing to pay?

Why don't you inquire about rates and the availabilty of advertising space?

Sales Department
CBS Outdoor
212-297-6400

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Re: What I learned riding the B4 and how the MTA loses money

Posted by TERRapin station on Tue May 22 17:51:28 2012, in response to Re: What I learned riding the B4 and how the MTA loses money, posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Tue May 22 16:45:21 2012.

Sensible course of action.

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Re: What I learned riding the B4 and how the MTA loses money

Posted by AMoreira81 on Tue May 22 23:47:13 2012, in response to Re: What I learned riding the B4 and how the MTA loses money, posted by BrooklynBus on Tue May 22 14:42:24 2012.

To me, that should be considered - reassigning the route to Flatbush, and combining the B2 and B100 to make room.

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Re: What I learned riding the B4 and how the MTA loses money

Posted by CJ on Wed May 23 00:02:17 2012, in response to Re: What I learned riding the B4 and how the MTA loses money, posted by RailBus63 on Tue May 22 09:08:32 2012.

I think we still do it, but some of the advertisements I've seen on most of the buses are outdated.

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Re: What I learned riding the B4 and how the MTA loses money

Posted by BrooklynBus on Wed May 23 10:40:31 2012, in response to Re: What I learned riding the B4 and how the MTA loses money, posted by RailBus63 on Tue May 22 09:08:32 2012.

You mean advertisers wouldn't take someone's money because they ride the bus? Do you know how many rich white ladies ride the bus on the upper east side?

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Re: What I learned riding the B4 and how the MTA loses money

Posted by Bounad Hanhic on Wed May 23 10:42:55 2012, in response to Re: What I learned riding the B4 and how the MTA loses money, posted by BrooklynBus on Wed May 23 10:40:31 2012.

They used to ride the X90.

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Re: What I learned riding the B4 and how the MTA loses money

Posted by RailBus63 on Wed May 23 12:37:28 2012, in response to Re: What I learned riding the B4 and how the MTA loses money, posted by BrooklynBus on Wed May 23 10:40:31 2012.

You mean advertisers wouldn't take someone's money because they ride the bus? Do you know how many rich white ladies ride the bus on the upper east side?

No, I mean that advertisers may decide against buying bus advertisements because there is a perception that bus passengers have lower incomes. The rich old ladies on the upper east side are the exception, not the rule.

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Re: What I learned riding the B4 and how the MTA loses money

Posted by BrooklynBus on Wed May 23 16:41:13 2012, in response to Re: What I learned riding the B4 and how the MTA loses money, posted by RailBus63 on Wed May 23 12:37:28 2012.

Even people with low incomes shop also. Some buy sneakers before they buy food.

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Re: What I learned riding the B4 and how the MTA loses money

Posted by WayneJay on Wed May 23 22:47:25 2012, in response to Re: What I learned riding the B4 and how the MTA loses money, posted by BrooklynBus on Tue May 22 12:38:25 2012.

But the question is what are the terms? Do you have to advertise on every bus in the city and how much does it cost? Doesn't it make sense to lower the asking price to a point where potential advertisers like local businesses would be interested? A local bakery in Brooklyn doesnt want to send money on advertising on buses in the Bronx, but he would. Interested on buses in his neighborhood.



Advertising customers are able target certain areas. As a child I lived near West Farms Sq (1970s) and I'll always remember I'd often see Queens County Savings Bank ads on the rear of Q-44 buses, and of course those ads weren't on Bronx buses.


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Re: What I learned riding the B4 and how the MTA loses money

Posted by WayneJay on Wed May 23 22:52:38 2012, in response to Re: What I learned riding the B4 and how the MTA loses money, posted by RailBus63 on Wed May 23 12:37:28 2012.

Agreed. I can see where an advertiser for a high-end product would advertise on bus exteriors, but not necessarily on the interior.

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Re: What I learned riding the B4 and how the MTA loses money

Posted by AMoreira81 on Wed May 23 23:26:39 2012, in response to Re: What I learned riding the B4 and how the MTA loses money, posted by RailBus63 on Wed May 23 12:37:28 2012.

It may also be because unlike exterior ads, interior cards on buses (unless protected with Lexan) are easier to vandalize.

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Re: What I learned riding the B4 and how the MTA loses money

Posted by Mr RT on Thu May 24 07:19:01 2012, in response to Re: What I learned riding the B4 and how the MTA loses money, posted by RailBus63 on Tue May 22 09:08:32 2012.

Interior advertising aka Car Cards have become museum pieces :-)

At the trolley museum in CT a member spent several thousand to find & laminate a bunch of car cards, by period & locality approiate for the car that they are in, e.g. a subway car that was in service through the 80's vs. a Montreal from the 30s (mostly French).


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Re: What I learned riding the B4 and how the MTA loses money

Posted by sloth on Thu May 24 09:14:39 2012, in response to Re: What I learned riding the B4 and how the MTA loses money, posted by WayneJay on Wed May 23 22:47:25 2012.

i remember a lot of exterior ads for cheap rotgut.

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Re: What I learned riding the B4 and how the MTA loses money

Posted by RailBus63 on Thu May 24 09:50:07 2012, in response to Re: What I learned riding the B4 and how the MTA loses money, posted by BrooklynBus on Wed May 23 16:41:13 2012.

Some buy sneakers before they buy food.

Sneaker retailers do buy lots of bus ads - they just prefer to put them on the front.

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Re: What I learned riding the B4 and how the MTA loses money

Posted by RailBus63 on Thu May 24 09:55:09 2012, in response to Re: What I learned riding the B4 and how the MTA loses money, posted by AMoreira81 on Wed May 23 23:26:39 2012.

Interior ads above the windows have several other drawbacks. In daylight hours, they can be difficult to see since our eyes often have difficulty adjusting from the bright light coming through the windows. Passengers on buses also probably look out the window more or are distracted by sights outside the vehicle - I find that I rarely look at interior bus ads, while I do catch myself reading subway ads because there's nothing to see outside when the train is rolling through a tunnel.

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Re: What I learned riding the B4 and how the MTA loses money

Posted by WayneJay on Thu May 24 10:13:32 2012, in response to Re: What I learned riding the B4 and how the MTA loses money, posted by RailBus63 on Thu May 24 09:55:09 2012.

Also, I think interior ads may have worked well back in the new look era when most NYCTA buses had perimeter seating.

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Re: What I learned riding the B4 and how the MTA loses money

Posted by BrooklynBus on Thu May 24 10:24:10 2012, in response to Re: What I learned riding the B4 and how the MTA loses money, posted by WayneJay on Thu May 24 10:13:32 2012.

Ad space was pretty much empty then also. The Mack's before them were full and they had front facing seating so I don't think that's it. I think they may have just raised the rates to advertise very high.

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Re: What I learned riding the B4 and how the MTA loses money

Posted by WayneJay on Thu May 24 14:54:48 2012, in response to Re: What I learned riding the B4 and how the MTA loses money, posted by BrooklynBus on Thu May 24 10:24:10 2012.

Ad space was pretty much empty then also.

Was this on TA buses? I ask because I do recall the interior racks being used on OA buses. All of the space on the racks weren't full, but I do recall them being used. Also, since it was somewhat common for buses to be in service without destination sign curtains, a lot of B/O's would hand write the route on that back of those ad placards and place it in the windshield:-).

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Re: What I learned riding the B4 and how the MTA loses money

Posted by BrooklynBus on Thu May 24 22:04:18 2012, in response to Re: What I learned riding the B4 and how the MTA loses money, posted by WayneJay on Thu May 24 14:54:48 2012.

Yes TA buses. I never rode OA, so i wouldn't know about them. When the New Look buses started there were ads on all the uses but over the next 30 years there was a slow but steady decline, so by around 1990 there were very few paid ads other than a few public service ads. I think the biggest decline was after 1980.

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Re: What I learned riding the B4 and how the MTA loses money

Posted by WayneJay on Fri May 25 09:38:45 2012, in response to Re: What I learned riding the B4 and how the MTA loses money, posted by BrooklynBus on Thu May 24 22:04:18 2012.

Oh, OK. Yes, OA buses tended to always have plenty of ads (both exterior and interior), especially those in Manhattan.

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Re: What I learned riding the B4 and how the MTA loses money

Posted by 3-9 on Fri May 25 13:16:38 2012, in response to Re: What I learned riding the B4 and how the MTA loses money, posted by BrooklynBus on Tue May 22 13:19:35 2012.

Agreed. There has to be a way of making it easier for local businesses to advertise on buses. Is it possible to advertise on specific routes? I can't imagine that local businesses are not interested in bus advertising unless there are major obstacle(s).

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Re: What I learned riding the B4 and how the MTA loses money

Posted by merrick1 on Fri May 25 13:58:42 2012, in response to Re: What I learned riding the B4 and how the MTA loses money, posted by 3-9 on Fri May 25 13:16:38 2012.

You could sell advertising for a specific depot but selling advertising on a specific route would mean giving up day to day operating flexibility so that a bus ran on a specific route every day.

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Re: What I learned riding the B4 and how the MTA loses money

Posted by BrooklynBus on Fri May 25 18:43:52 2012, in response to Re: What I learned riding the B4 and how the MTA loses money, posted by merrick1 on Fri May 25 13:58:42 2012.

Selling on a specific route I don't think would make too much sense. But I see nothing wrong with doing it by depot. They could even have buy three depots and get a fourth free.

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Re: What I learned riding the B4 and how the MTA loses money

Posted by Mr Mabstoa on Fri May 25 19:37:36 2012, in response to What I learned riding the B4 and how the MTA loses money, posted by BrooklynBus on Mon May 21 19:33:33 2012.

Good article.

1. More supervision is required on the road. Many posts have been eliminated and patrol cars are either doing reports, transporting operators or hanging in the depots bullshitting. If you have more agressive supervision looking for operators who screw up the line then things on the line will improv. Operators never take chances where they think they will be caught.

2. There was a famous Quinto memo on operators being forbidden to use interior bus ads for anything. Back in the day we used them for seats, covering holes in the winter and anything else. Then the ads were covered with plastic and screwed in so that they were much harder to remove.

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Re: What I learned riding the B4 and how the MTA loses money

Posted by TERRapin station on Fri May 25 19:40:32 2012, in response to Re: What I learned riding the B4 and how the MTA loses money, posted by Mr Mabstoa on Fri May 25 19:37:36 2012.

Actually, you're wrong, it's not a good article.

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Re: What I learned riding the B4 and how the MTA loses money

Posted by Mr Mabstoa on Sat May 26 01:20:27 2012, in response to Re: What I learned riding the B4 and how the MTA loses money, posted by TERRapin station on Fri May 25 19:40:32 2012.

Is that your opinion with all your experience working for buses?

And don't you hate buses, your words being "TEH BUSES TEH SUCK!"?

Anyhow I know you have said "CARS RULE" so you really aren't a transit buff per say.

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Re: What I learned riding the B4 and how the MTA loses money

Posted by cortelyounext on Sat May 26 14:06:47 2012, in response to Re: What I learned riding the B4 and how the MTA loses money, posted by Mr Mabstoa on Fri May 25 19:37:36 2012.

Please stop using words like per say in your posts. How come you spelled the name of your dog wrong?

Here

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