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NJ Transit's Millennium Transit's RTS "Express"

Posted by Flxible4life on Mon May 7 23:18:24 2012

With NJ Transit being interested in MTS. From sources, it appears that they'll make a purchase of somewhere of 150 RTS Express coaches in the near future... that's if everything goes smoothly on MTS's side.

Three questions:

1. What's the set up (engine/tranny) going to be?
2. Will they test Detroit Demand's DD11 engine?
3. Which garages you think will receive those buses?

I believe Meadowlands, Market ST., Washington Twp and Oradell gonna receive them, but we'll see!

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(259973)

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Re: NJ Transit's Millennium Transit's RTS ''Express''

Posted by RailBus63 on Tue May 8 09:51:42 2012, in response to NJ Transit's Millennium Transit's RTS "Express", posted by Flxible4life on Mon May 7 23:18:24 2012.

Which sources?

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Re: NJ Transit's Millennium Transit's RTS ''Express''

Posted by SJP7121 on Tue May 8 13:00:49 2012, in response to NJ Transit's Millennium Transit's RTS "Express", posted by Flxible4life on Mon May 7 23:18:24 2012.

I'm curious......Why on earth would Oradell ditch its MCI's for RTS buses???? I don't wanna think what the 166 or 167 would look like with those on the road.......

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Re: NJ Transit's Millennium Transit's RTS ''Express''

Posted by Gotham Bus Co. on Tue May 8 16:35:07 2012, in response to Re: NJ Transit's Millennium Transit's RTS ''Express'', posted by SJP7121 on Tue May 8 13:00:49 2012.

Why on earth would Oradell ditch its MCI's for RTS buses?

The depots probably don't operate in a vacuum. If a particular depot loses a particular set of buses, it's because upper management said so.

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Re: NJ Transit's Millennium Transit's RTS ''Express''

Posted by Joe V on Tue May 8 16:54:50 2012, in response to NJ Transit's Millennium Transit's RTS "Express", posted by Flxible4life on Mon May 7 23:18:24 2012.

Didn't some Flxible Metro Suburbans get replaced by MCI's in South Jersey a few years ago ? Perhaps when some of the oldest or CNG Cruisers go, they revert back to Suburbans again, in the form of an RTS Express.

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Re: NJ Transit's Millennium Transit's RTS ''Express''

Posted by caine515 on Tue May 8 18:38:36 2012, in response to Re: NJ Transit's Millennium Transit's RTS ''Express'', posted by Joe V on Tue May 8 16:54:50 2012.

The Flixibles(sigh) got replaced by NABI which were SUPPOSED to be Milenium at the time. Is ANY Flixibles still running in NJ?

B1-#5078-NOVABUS
S53-#4897-New Flyer Excelsior
S93LTD-#6272-Orion V

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Re: NJ Transit's Millennium Transit's RTS ''Express''

Posted by Flxible4life on Tue May 8 18:41:11 2012, in response to Re: NJ Transit's Millennium Transit's RTS ''Express'', posted by Gotham Bus Co. on Tue May 8 16:35:07 2012.

The source is from nyc transit forums. It's similar to this site. Just go to NYCT bus operations and click on... I think it's called BTE( bus testing evaluation). From there, highlight Millennium Transit forum and go to the last page (9) where the gentleman talks about a possible 150 order from NJT.

Now, why did I mention Oradell? The RTS express are not suitable for lines 166 and 167, therefore, that's a no brainier. I can see an RTS Exp. on lines 168 and possibly 164. Again, some if not all of you know that NJT is about to replace some MCI lines with RTS Express coaches because of cost savings and operations is lesser compared to an MCI D4000CT. I mean.. they have 250 NABI suburbans in service. With 150 and who knows possibly more RTS exp comin' in the near future. What lines are you gonna put them on. They are not ordering any "Legends"( locals). Yes, I know that many riders are spoiled with riding the cruisers which is understandable. Remember, before I came to New Jersey 10 years ago. Lines 167, 190, 128 and ect. were run by Flxible Metro "B" buses. Later, NJT decided to have those lines strictly cruisers because the ridership was growing, comfort and amenities of the bus and to appease high class peoples from northern, central and southern counties.

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(259983)

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Re: NJ Transit's Millennium Transit's RTS ''Express''

Posted by Joe V on Tue May 8 18:42:00 2012, in response to Re: NJ Transit's Millennium Transit's RTS ''Express'', posted by caine515 on Tue May 8 18:38:36 2012.

I seem to remember some of the Suburbans got replaced by MCI's before the NABI's came.

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Re: NJ Transit's Millennium Transit's RTS ''Express''

Posted by Flxible4life on Tue May 8 18:54:13 2012, in response to Re: NJ Transit's Millennium Transit's RTS ''Express'', posted by Joe V on Tue May 8 18:42:00 2012.

Thank you very much! You hit the nail on its head.

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Re: NJ Transit's Millennium Transit's RTS ''Express''

Posted by Joe V on Tue May 8 19:18:44 2012, in response to Re: NJ Transit's Millennium Transit's RTS ''Express'', posted by Flxible4life on Tue May 8 18:54:13 2012.

This all assumes Millenium can actually run an assembly line. Several years ago, they proved they could not.

BTW, Somerset County owns the 2 ex-NJT RTS Transit demos, which themselves were rebuilds of older RTS's. They generally run on the Bound Brook - New Brunswick DASH route. Somerset is buying 4 El Dorado's this year. The Milleniums were too expensive.

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Re: NJ Transit's Millennium Transit's RTS ''Express''

Posted by SJP7121 on Tue May 8 20:11:13 2012, in response to Re: NJ Transit's Millennium Transit's RTS ''Express'', posted by Flxible4life on Tue May 8 18:41:11 2012.

Well, in that case, I would think that Market Street would be the better alternative since all those lines that goes to the GWB really don't need a MCI. They would be perfect for the RTS Express buses. I don't think the 168 would go to RTS since that line is part of the Blvd. East line of buses that requires MCI's. If you change one, you might as well change them all. But, all the GWB lines from Market St & Meadowlands, as well as the 123, 124, 125, and 127 Local (Not the Shaler Blvd extention since they EXPECT a MCI in the AM and PM).

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Re: NJ Transit's Millennium Transit's RTS ''Express''

Posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Wed May 9 08:58:46 2012, in response to Re: NJ Transit's Millennium Transit's RTS ''Express'', posted by Joe V on Tue May 8 19:18:44 2012.

BTW, Somerset County owns the 2 ex-NJT RTS Transit demos, which themselves were rebuilds of older RTS's.

They are? What were they originally?

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Re: NJ Transit's Millennium Transit's RTS ''Express''

Posted by RailBus63 on Wed May 9 12:51:16 2012, in response to Re: NJ Transit's Millennium Transit's RTS ''Express'', posted by Joe V on Tue May 8 19:18:44 2012.

I thought the Somerset units were part of the group of NJT units that were built before the order was cancelled?

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Re: NJ Transit's Millennium Transit's RTS ''Express''

Posted by Joe V on Wed May 9 17:13:30 2012, in response to Re: NJ Transit's Millennium Transit's RTS ''Express'', posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Wed May 9 08:58:46 2012.

I have no idea, but read in a bus book that those with an irregular window arrangement are rebuilds, not new construction.

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Re: NJ Transit's Millennium Transit's RTS ''Express''

Posted by Joe V on Wed May 9 17:14:03 2012, in response to Re: NJ Transit's Millennium Transit's RTS ''Express'', posted by RailBus63 on Wed May 9 12:51:16 2012.

They were NJT demos. Now they are Somerset 4024 & 4025

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Re: NJ Transit's Millennium Transit's RTS ''Express''

Posted by The Flxible Neofan on Thu May 10 12:48:39 2012, in response to NJ Transit's Millennium Transit's RTS "Express", posted by Flxible4life on Mon May 7 23:18:24 2012.

If this happens, it would probably help with Washington Twp as the 400, 403, and 406 are now exact fare lines and therefore can't really use the MCIs anymore.

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Re: NJ Transit's Millennium Transit's RTS ''Express''

Posted by BedStuyGuy on Thu May 10 17:15:12 2012, in response to Re: NJ Transit's Millennium Transit's RTS ''Express'', posted by Joe V on Tue May 8 19:18:44 2012.

Actually most of that is incorrect. I was told by the Director of Maintenance at Somerset that they wanted more Millennium's but they could not wait until the 2012/2013 time frame. It had nothing to do with the cost, and they were very dissapointed that they had to go with ElDorado, who was the ONLY bus manufacturer to respond to their RFP. That procurement was definitely NOT by choice.

The NJT demo's were not rebuilds of older buses either. They were brand new buses built for NJT from the ground up.

MTS also had no problem running an assembly line when they made those 30+ NJT spec'd buses. The order was cancelled for a reason that really had nothing to do with MTS. Hence NJT still willing to work with them in some capacity. I was asked by an NJT exec (at APTA) not to even discuss it, but just know the story everyone THINKS they know is quite wrong.

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Re: NJ Transit's Millennium Transit's RTS ''Express''

Posted by JAzumah on Thu May 10 17:24:31 2012, in response to Re: NJ Transit's Millennium Transit's RTS ''Express'', posted by BedStuyGuy on Thu May 10 17:15:12 2012.

Financing manufacturing is not an easy task. It can get very expensive for a manufacturer that has to wait up to 6 months to get paid. It is almost better to approach the hedge funds yourself and cut out the middlemen that add the additional cost.

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Re: NJ Transit's Millennium Transit's RTS ''Express''

Posted by Joe V on Thu May 10 17:31:25 2012, in response to Re: NJ Transit's Millennium Transit's RTS ''Express'', posted by BedStuyGuy on Thu May 10 17:15:12 2012.

Well I was told by a Somerset County bus driver about the cost factor.

NJT did in fact grow quite impatient with MTS, made spot appearances and saws nothing going on when there should have been.

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Re: NJ Transit's Millennium Transit's RTS ''Express''

Posted by BedStuyGuy on Thu May 10 17:46:45 2012, in response to Re: NJ Transit's Millennium Transit's RTS ''Express'', posted by Joe V on Thu May 10 17:31:25 2012.

Yes they are expensive, but Somerset was willing to deal with that because the in-service-time, and 20+ year service live outweighed the costs associated with purchasing the buses.

You are 100% correct about NJT being impatient though. hat was a mess! MTS did take quite a long time to get the buses to them, but this was due to the fact that the new buses were a work-in-progress at the time, and MTS ended up making a million changes before they were actually delivered to NJT. There were quite a few teething problems as well, but those were taken care of years ago. All 34 units are now at their mid-life overhaul point, but not one single bus in service needs to be overhauled at all.

MTS will build upon that, and EIS of the new 42.5 foot Express should be painless this time around.

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Re: NJ Transit's Millennium Transit's RTS ''Express''

Posted by BedStuyGuy on Thu May 10 17:48:59 2012, in response to Re: NJ Transit's Millennium Transit's RTS ''Express'', posted by JAzumah on Thu May 10 17:24:31 2012.

This is definitely part of the reason why the order was canceled.

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Re: NJ Transit's Millennium Transit's RTS ''Express''

Posted by ctrabs74 on Thu May 10 23:37:40 2012, in response to Re: NJ Transit's Millennium Transit's RTS ''Express'', posted by The Flxible Neofan on Thu May 10 12:48:39 2012.

406 is exact fare? Since when? I knew 400/403 were made exact fare last year.

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Re: NJ Transit's Millennium Transit's RTS ''Express''

Posted by JAzumah on Fri May 11 01:16:45 2012, in response to Re: NJ Transit's Millennium Transit's RTS ''Express'', posted by BedStuyGuy on Thu May 10 17:48:59 2012.

It can cost a manufacturer between 15 and 20% of the bid price to finance a group of buses for up to 6 months. The typical gross margin is around 25-30% for a transit bus (before development costs are factored in). So, a potential manufacturer has to snag a big order to attract contract financing and then they have to nail down a bunch of little orders to improve cash flow. I surmise that this is the strategy that Gillig is using.

This is why I would buy Orion (I can say this publicly because no one will take me seriously). Orion just needs more orders and an expanded product line. I would license the bigger Sprinter model and gangbang everybody in the 7-10 year market with it. If you haven't seen the 5.9-7.7 meter Sprinter, go check out Mercedes-Benz's website. A good unibody minibus would take the transit market by storm.

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Re: NJ Transit's Millennium Transit's RTS ''Express''

Posted by daimlerbuses on Fri May 11 02:34:07 2012, in response to Re: NJ Transit's Millennium Transit's RTS ''Express'', posted by JAzumah on Fri May 11 01:16:45 2012.

25-30%? Having followed the industry inside I can tell you nobody here is making a 25% profit margin building buses.

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Re: NJ Transit's Millennium Transit's RTS ''Express''

Posted by JAzumah on Fri May 11 07:11:00 2012, in response to Re: NJ Transit's Millennium Transit's RTS ''Express'', posted by daimlerbuses on Fri May 11 02:34:07 2012.

Gross margin means that you can physically build a bus for 70-75% of the bid price. That is different from net margin, which includes R&D and the like.

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Re: NJ Transit's Millennium Transit's RTS ''Express''

Posted by Joe V on Fri May 11 17:17:10 2012, in response to Re: NJ Transit's Millennium Transit's RTS ''Express'', posted by BedStuyGuy on Thu May 10 17:46:45 2012.

So how do you tell an MTS that is rebuilt verses one from the ground up ?

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Re: NJ Transit's Millennium Transit's RTS ''Express''

Posted by Joe V on Fri May 11 17:18:27 2012, in response to Re: NJ Transit's Millennium Transit's RTS ''Express'', posted by BedStuyGuy on Thu May 10 17:46:45 2012.

Does 42.5 foot Express need a tag axle ?

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Re: NJ Transit's Millennium Transit's RTS ''Express''

Posted by RiverLINE3501 on Fri May 11 22:59:14 2012, in response to Re: NJ Transit's Millennium Transit's RTS ''Express'', posted by ctrabs74 on Thu May 10 23:37:40 2012.

406 is NOT an exact fare line. In fact it runs mostly MCI's with an occasional NABI.



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Re: NJ Transit's Millennium Transit's RTS ''Express''

Posted by Flxible4life on Sat May 12 09:34:27 2012, in response to Re: NJ Transit's Millennium Transit's RTS ''Express'', posted by Joe V on Fri May 11 17:18:27 2012.

Nope. Just take a look at Nabi's 45C-LF. No tag axle and the model is doing fine in the west coast market (LACMTA and Phoenix).

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Re: NJ Transit's Millennium Transit's RTS ''Express''

Posted by RailBus63 on Sat May 12 10:26:49 2012, in response to Re: NJ Transit's Millennium Transit's RTS ''Express'', posted by BedStuyGuy on Thu May 10 17:46:45 2012.

MTS is going to need time to ramp up its production line. How many employees are still around from when Nova and TMC ran the plant? People move on with their lives, and some of the most experienced employees have probably reached retirement age by now. There's also the on again/off again history of MTS and the bus manufacturing business in general - some of the best employees that MTS presumably will want to hire may have good jobs right now and may well decide not to give it up for a risky employer like this.

This is not to say it cannot be done, just that it will involve time, effort and patience. Even when the economy is down, it's never easy to find good employees.

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Re: NJ Transit's Millennium Transit's RTS ''Express''

Posted by Joe V on Sat May 12 17:13:35 2012, in response to Re: NJ Transit's Millennium Transit's RTS ''Express'', posted by Flxible4life on Sat May 12 09:34:27 2012.

I think Jersey has stricter rear axle loads though.

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Re: NJ Transit's Millennium Transit's RTS ''Express''

Posted by Joe V on Sat May 12 17:15:54 2012, in response to Re: NJ Transit's Millennium Transit's RTS ''Express'', posted by RailBus63 on Sat May 12 10:26:49 2012.

A lot of Orion people in upstate NY are looking for jobs.
MCI was pretty ruthless with Pembina, ND workers a few years ago, while Canadian laws made it very difficult for them to relo to Winnipeg.

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Re: NJ Transit's Millennium Transit's RTS ''Express''

Posted by The Flxible Neofan on Sun May 13 10:23:19 2012, in response to Re: NJ Transit's Millennium Transit's RTS ''Express'', posted by RiverLINE3501 on Fri May 11 22:59:14 2012.

Goodness, it was just the 400 and 403? Sorry for my error, I always seem to lump the 3 lines together, heh.

Why does the 406 use MCIs so much anyway - it doesn't seem to be a long line at all (at least, for a Southern Jersey Line) and it used to run plenty of Metro Bs back in the day.

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Re: NJ Transit's Millennium Transit's RTS ''Express''

Posted by RailBus63 on Sun May 13 10:42:47 2012, in response to Re: NJ Transit's Millennium Transit's RTS ''Express'', posted by Joe V on Sat May 12 17:15:54 2012.

A lot of Orion people in upstate NY are looking for jobs.

Migration from one state to another has been down in recent years. Part of it has to do with people not being able to sell their homes without losing money, and another part of it is the proliferation these days of two-income households - one person might lose their job and be willing to move to another state, but their partner may not want to give up their career or could have difficulty finding a comparable job in that state. There are also family considerations, especially if someone is thinking of moving from New York state all the way down to New Mexico.

New York state has already pledged to offer job retraining assistance for the displaced Orion workers - I suspect many will take that aid and try new careers here rather than uproot and move almost 2,000 miles away to work for another bus manufacturer with uncertain long-term prospects.


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(260201)

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Re: NJ Transit's Millennium Transit's RTS ''Express''

Posted by Joe V on Sun May 13 12:56:39 2012, in response to Re: NJ Transit's Millennium Transit's RTS ''Express'', posted by RailBus63 on Sun May 13 10:42:47 2012.

Well I know, but upstate NY has been in industrial down-spiral for 50 years. It will be slim-pickens' for these people. I hope for their sake they do better than heading to A Walmart employment kiosk.

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Re: NJ Transit's Millennium Transit's RTS ''Express''

Posted by Flxible4life on Sun May 13 14:26:04 2012, in response to Re: NJ Transit's Millennium Transit's RTS ''Express'', posted by The Flxible Neofan on Sun May 13 10:23:19 2012.

Also, it ran an occasional baby Nova back then.

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Re: NJ Transit's Millennium Transit's RTS ''Express''

Posted by BedStuyGuy on Mon May 14 17:04:09 2012, in response to Re: NJ Transit's Millennium Transit's RTS ''Express'', posted by Joe V on Fri May 11 17:17:10 2012.

The only MTS rebuilds are 25 TMC V-Drive buses from El Paso Texas which were converted to CNG from diesel as part of the rebuild.


All MTS buses are built brand new, and are T-Drive. This means there is a 5 foot module, and a 2.5 foot module welded together behind the rear axle. Go to the link below, select Millennium, and browse the photos by transit agency.
http://www.ttmg.org/photos-bus.html

You can also see photos on the MTS webdite, and facebook page.
http://www.millenniumtransit.com/
https://www.facebook.com/legendcontinues

MTS also built a front door suburban for Artesia. All other buses have the classic front end styling with the exception of the low floor.
http://www.nyctransitforums.com/forums/index.php/topic/28119-mts-t-drive-rts/

http://www.nyctransitforums.com/forums/index.php/topic/29811-transit-forums-exclusive-millennium-rts-apta-2011/

http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh156/dmcr9525/2011pics154.jpg
Photo Copyright East New York @ nyctransitforum.com

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