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Re: Millennium debt deepens |
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Posted by Joe V on Sun Aug 23 13:26:08 2009, in response to Millennium debt deepens, posted by busfreak99 on Sun Aug 23 12:55:19 2009. I guess we will never again see another RTS produced. |
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Posted by busdude2 on Sun Aug 23 13:58:05 2009, in response to Millennium debt deepens, posted by busfreak99 on Sun Aug 23 12:55:19 2009. That is no surprise they are just prolonging the final curtain call of the RTS . |
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Re: Millennium debt deepens |
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Posted by PHXTUSbusfan on Sun Aug 23 14:09:11 2009, in response to Re: Millennium debt deepens, posted by busdude2 on Sun Aug 23 13:58:05 2009. I find it interesting that a model as successful as the RTS ended up being tossed around like a hot potato (from GMC to TMC to Nova to Millenium). They were good buses (even if they rattle a lot in the interior) and will be missed. |
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Re: Millennium debt deepens |
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Posted by GOLD_12th on Sun Aug 23 14:38:49 2009, in response to Millennium debt deepens, posted by busfreak99 on Sun Aug 23 12:55:19 2009. RTS is already dead when Nova stops making it 8 years ago. No customers right now would buy them after the fiascos and more and more transit agencies going to low floor. In this economy they should be a parts company for now until the economy picks up. |
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Re: Millennium debt deepens |
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Posted by RTS_book on Sun Aug 23 15:50:36 2009, in response to Re: Millennium debt deepens, posted by GOLD_12th on Sun Aug 23 14:38:49 2009. I'm not even sure that would make sense--the numbers of RTS continue to dwindle as LFs take over. |
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Re: Millennium debt deepens |
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Posted by Joe V on Sun Aug 23 16:16:05 2009, in response to Re: Millennium debt deepens, posted by GOLD_12th on Sun Aug 23 14:38:49 2009. But Millenium had designed a low-floor RTS.Unlike all other brands, the RTS is not a phucking box with no personality. |
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Re: Millennium debt deepens |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Aug 24 00:18:54 2009, in response to Re: Millennium debt deepens, posted by GOLD_12th on Sun Aug 23 14:38:49 2009. False, as Joe V noted. Millennium has a low-floor RTS, called the RTS Extreme, IINM. |
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Re: Millennium debt deepens |
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Posted by GOLD_12th on Mon Aug 24 02:48:54 2009, in response to Re: Millennium debt deepens, posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Aug 24 00:18:54 2009. False my ass.The RTS Extreme is in development stage for many years. They should have been done fixing some issues and be brought into the product lineup. |
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Re: Millennium debt deepens |
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Posted by GOLD_12th on Mon Aug 24 02:50:03 2009, in response to Re: Millennium debt deepens, posted by Joe V on Sun Aug 23 16:16:05 2009. Did Millenium sell RTS Extreme yet? NO. |
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Re: Millennium debt deepens |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Aug 24 07:42:53 2009, in response to Re: Millennium debt deepens, posted by GOLD_12th on Mon Aug 24 02:48:54 2009. Yes, false. RTS Extreme. Low Floor. |
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Re: Millennium debt deepens |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Aug 24 07:43:54 2009, in response to Re: Millennium debt deepens, posted by GOLD_12th on Mon Aug 24 02:50:03 2009. um, Did anyone order them yet? No? Well then. Can't sell any 'til someone orders them. |
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Re: Millennium debt deepens |
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Posted by Hank Eisenstein on Mon Aug 24 10:38:22 2009, in response to Re: Millennium debt deepens, posted by Joe V on Sun Aug 23 16:16:05 2009. Nope, it's a rolling sausage with no personality. |
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Re: Millennium debt deepens |
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Posted by busdude2 on Mon Aug 24 10:44:56 2009, in response to Re: Millennium debt deepens, posted by PHXTUSbusfan on Sun Aug 23 14:09:11 2009. Your right it deserved better. But low floors rule now except in N.J. |
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Re: Millennium debt deepens |
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Posted by AMoreira81 on Mon Aug 24 10:46:34 2009, in response to Re: Millennium debt deepens, posted by busdude2 on Mon Aug 24 10:44:56 2009. NJT is getting 39 31' low floors to replace the baby RTSs (only 39 because the remaining 41 will be replaced by 40' buses). |
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Re: Millennium debt deepens |
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Posted by busdude2 on Mon Aug 24 11:01:50 2009, in response to Re: Millennium debt deepens, posted by AMoreira81 on Mon Aug 24 10:46:34 2009. Yes but I mean the big nabi order of 1,200 plus buses. That will keep high floors ruling in NJ for a very long time. |
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Re: Millennium debt deepens |
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Posted by GOLD_12th on Mon Aug 24 12:21:06 2009, in response to Re: Millennium debt deepens, posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Aug 24 07:42:53 2009. False, for your part. |
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Re: Millennium debt deepens |
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Posted by GOLD_12th on Mon Aug 24 12:22:53 2009, in response to Re: Millennium debt deepens, posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Aug 24 07:43:54 2009. Um, your post is useless. |
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Re: Millennium debt deepens |
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Posted by RTS_Book on Mon Aug 24 12:24:32 2009, in response to Re: Millennium debt deepens, posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Aug 24 00:18:54 2009. Yes, and so did Nova as early as 2001. MTS simply took over Nova's design.I'd love to know what's taking MTS so long in launching the thing...it's been, what, eight years now, and still nothing? Even the MTS T-Drive RTS wasn't new--Nova had that ready to run in 2000 (was sent to Altoona), and it took a *long* time before that appeared. I think there's still some life left in the RTS design, but I'm very curious about these extraordinary delays and a lack of explanation about them. Worrying, to say the least. |
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Re: Millennium debt deepens |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Aug 24 12:36:46 2009, in response to Re: Millennium debt deepens, posted by RTS_Book on Mon Aug 24 12:24:32 2009. Exactly. Thank you. |
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Re: Millennium debt deepens |
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Posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Mon Aug 24 13:33:11 2009, in response to Re: Millennium debt deepens, posted by RTS_Book on Mon Aug 24 12:24:32 2009. Even the MTS T-Drive RTS wasn't new--Nova had that ready to run in 2000...TMC had them in 1992! |
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Re: Millennium debt deepens |
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Posted by Joe V on Mon Aug 24 17:03:02 2009, in response to Re: Millennium debt deepens, posted by GOLD_12th on Mon Aug 24 02:48:54 2009. Everything about Millenium is in "development" since they did not have the competence to run an assembly line.A low floor RTS DOES exist (unless someone cut it up in the last couple of years). Go and buy Evan T. McCausland's RTS book from Iconografix and open to page 158. It was also displayed at the 2006 APTA Expo in Dallas. |
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Re: Millennium debt deepens |
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Posted by GOLD_12th on Mon Aug 24 17:46:49 2009, in response to Re: Millennium debt deepens, posted by Joe V on Mon Aug 24 17:03:02 2009. No need to see his book, there pics on Google images and of course the low floor RTS does exist.The only product on the line is the high floor RTS with very very very few customers ordered. I am waiting to see if they are going to Chapter 7 because they really can not keep up with the competitors. |
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Re: Millennium debt deepens |
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Posted by RailBus63 on Mon Aug 24 21:51:42 2009, in response to Millennium debt deepens, posted by busfreak99 on Sun Aug 23 12:55:19 2009. Let's face it, folks - Millennium is on life-support and needs a miracle to survive. If banks are unwilling to lend money to strong businesses with solid histories and promising futures, what are the chances they will give money to a company that cannot get its business going and whose chief product (a high-floor bus) is all but obsolete?IMO, their only realistic chance to survive would be if a large corporation with deep pockets came along and decided it needed to buy a North American transit bus manufacturer. Even so, they would probably seek to buy a more established company like NABI or even New Flyer from its investors rather than a company whose low-floor design exists on paper only. |
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Re: Millennium debt deepens |
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Posted by RTS_book on Mon Aug 24 21:57:26 2009, in response to Re: Millennium debt deepens, posted by GOLD_12th on Mon Aug 24 17:46:49 2009. I would hope there's at least one redeeming quality to my book in your eyes...-Evan |
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Re: Millennium debt deepens |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Aug 24 22:07:22 2009, in response to Re: Millennium debt deepens, posted by RTS_book on Mon Aug 24 21:57:26 2009. Yeah, you'd hope... |
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Re: Millennium debt deepens |
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Posted by GOLD_12th on Mon Aug 24 23:07:18 2009, in response to Re: Millennium debt deepens, posted by RTS_book on Mon Aug 24 21:57:26 2009. I just pointed out a reference to that poster. Nothing is wrong your book. |
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Re: Millennium debt deepens |
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Posted by JAzumah on Tue Aug 25 08:21:34 2009, in response to Re: Millennium debt deepens, posted by RailBus63 on Mon Aug 24 21:51:42 2009. I don't understand why a low floor RTS is all that complicated. Much of the space under the front 2/3rds of the bus is empty. The RV guys put water tanks under there and they use it for storage. I assume the Extreme basically takes this space out to make it a low floor and adds longer windows up front.I have the feeling that they are not bidding on contracts at all. If they had any contracts, they could be used as collateral. They need to go secure a contract and figure out which Cummins engines can fit in the RTS. This seems to be a management issue more than a build quality issue. |
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Re: Millennium debt deepens |
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Posted by kcram3500 on Tue Aug 25 12:33:17 2009, in response to Re: Millennium debt deepens, posted by JAzumah on Tue Aug 25 08:21:34 2009. A contract doesn't solve their money problems - in fact, it makes it worse. Buses are not paid for until the delivery is completed... thus they would need to borrow incredible amounts of money for parts and labor to build the buses before they get a dime. Bus manufacturers "pay forward"... the money they get from order #1 is used to build order #2, and so on. With Millennium's current situation, what bank or supplier is going to give them credit until the check comes (and that assumes the buses are accepted by the customer)? That was their problem with the NJT order... it was worth $94 million, but they didn't have the money to actually build all 289 buses ordered. They sold the 40 NJT units they did assemble, and that allowed them to pay suppliers and build a small handful more to complete the small contracts they did get. |
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Re: Millennium debt deepens |
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Posted by brightonr68 on Tue Aug 25 13:01:33 2009, in response to Re: Millennium debt deepens, posted by kcram3500 on Tue Aug 25 12:33:17 2009. "A contract doesn't solve their money problems - in fact, it makes it worse. Buses are not paid for until the delivery is completed... thus they would need to borrow incredible amounts of money for parts and labor to build the buses before they get a dime"All those ignorant people who were AGAINST the TARP program(aka bank bailout) failed to see the only reason for the so called bailout was to allow banks to have money to lend to businesses such as Millenniuem. If the looser senate and house would have moved foward with the tarp in the spring of 2008 there would be far fewer layoffs and bankruptcies. OH yeh the gov has made over a hundred billion $ in profits on TARP already. |
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Re: Millennium debt deepens |
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Posted by brightonr68 on Tue Aug 25 13:44:11 2009, in response to Re: Millennium debt deepens, posted by JAzumah on Tue Aug 25 08:21:34 2009. THEY MAY be some structural steel just under the current floor. We are not engineers |
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Re: Millennium debt deepens |
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Posted by busdude2 on Tue Aug 25 16:45:01 2009, in response to Re: Millennium debt deepens, posted by brightonr68 on Tue Aug 25 13:01:33 2009. Ignorant why because we disagree with you. Throwing more of our taxpayer money out the window for a company that most likely wont make it anyway. Feel free to send your money if you want to help them i'm sure they will take it. |
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Re: Millennium debt deepens |
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Posted by RTS_book on Tue Aug 25 18:59:47 2009, in response to Re: Millennium debt deepens, posted by JAzumah on Tue Aug 25 08:21:34 2009. -Front suspension is different (IFS, not solid beam-axle--quite retro when you think about it, actually)-Entire body structure ahead of the rear door is different--basic RTS design carries through, but all of the bulkheads would need to be redesigned to retain structural strength But I still can't figure out why, after almost 8 years of toying with it, that Nova/MTS couldn't work it out to a production-ready state... |
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Re: Millennium debt deepens |
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Posted by RailBus63 on Tue Aug 25 19:37:58 2009, in response to Re: Millennium debt deepens, posted by RTS_book on Tue Aug 25 18:59:47 2009. But I still can't figure out why, after almost 8 years of toying with it, that Nova/MTS couldn't work it out to a production-ready state...I'm assuming Nova never put the effort into perfecting this design because they already had the LFS, and Millennium didn't have the resources. |
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Re: Millennium debt deepens |
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Posted by JAzumah on Tue Aug 25 19:42:32 2009, in response to Re: Millennium debt deepens, posted by kcram3500 on Tue Aug 25 12:33:17 2009. "Buses are not paid for until the delivery is completed... thus they would need to borrow incredible amounts of money for parts and labor to build the buses before they get a dime."Millennium would use a combination of factoring and contract financing in order to do this. The contract financing company would advance up to 75% of the cost of the bus to actually assemble it and the factor would advance up to 80% of the cost of the bus to repay the contract financing company once buses are assembled. Since contract financing is easier to get when the "goods" are no touch, Millennium could get help with that through a creditor. This type of financing is still available. The question is whether Millennium has the capability to build high quality buses rapidly. If they do, they can get it done. The only challenge is that factors don't like to wait six months on money under normal conditions. However, if Millennium really wants to exist, they can get it done. I have a factoring line for my company. If I can get one, Millennium can get one. |
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Posted by JAzumah on Tue Aug 25 20:00:27 2009, in response to Re: Millennium debt deepens, posted by RTS_book on Tue Aug 25 18:59:47 2009. I would gather that it is ready for production if someone gave them an order for it. When was the last time they bid on a new bus contract? Have they bid an Extreme yet?It's not that hard to build a Gen 1 RTS low floor. You simply move the front door behind the front wheel, create a full width driver compartment, mount the farebox between the front wheels (and place the driver compartment door there), and drop the floor 10 inches or so. The driver can step up to the compartment. The dropped floor would end after the rear doors, where steps could be placed. The bus could be offered in 40' and 45' lengths. One could argue that an LFS is a squared off RTS. Squaring the lower portion off would make things easier. |
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Re: Millennium debt deepens |
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Posted by RTS_book on Tue Aug 25 20:14:28 2009, in response to Re: Millennium debt deepens, posted by JAzumah on Tue Aug 25 20:00:27 2009. By now, it should have happened, but it's hardly "not that hard," considering the approach taking to engineering strength into the RTS structure (and, for that matter, the LF Transbus prototypes--the ideas in lowering floor height thirty years ago were quite different than they are today).We've seen the "production intent" Extreme prototype. Yes, everything ahead of the rear door is LF, but you still need to engineer the suspension changes, to say nothing of the structure. You lose the normal underfloor bulkheads in the modules moving to the LF--you've either got to recoup the loss of structure in the roof or in the sidewalls. Nova also tried adding lower windows so as not to give the impression to passengers in the LF portion. I don't see the LFS-RTS relationship, as that structure is completely different (quite European, actually...). If you're going to square off the lower flanks of the RTS for an LF, you're just as good just designing an all-new LF design. |
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Re: Millennium debt deepens |
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Posted by RTS_book on Tue Aug 25 20:20:36 2009, in response to Re: Millennium debt deepens, posted by RailBus63 on Tue Aug 25 19:37:58 2009. No. Despite their consolidation under the Nova blanket, the Roswell and Quebec operations were rather separate--in fact, the Canadian firm was reluctant to buy TMC from Dial after purchasing the MCI transit operations. That's a somewhat separate story, but the gist of it is a superiority complex was held by the Canadians.It showed up again when Roswell engineering developed the RTS LF. Folks I know who saw and rode on the bus were quite impressed with how solid it felt. Quebec, though, had the LFS, and the opinion was that one LF design was enough. A few years later, the same group justified shuttering the Roswell operations, using the fact that HF orders were growing scarce, and the group "couldn't remain relevant." I have a feeling this bus could have made more inroads if it simply had actual corporate support. Sadly, after 1992, the entire RTS line seemed to loose just that. I can't point at a single major change that made it into series production that didn't come about via either GM ownership or TMC's management. Glory days, indeed. |
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Posted by fishbowls4ever on Tue Aug 25 20:57:26 2009, in response to Re: Millennium debt deepens, posted by RTS_book on Tue Aug 25 20:20:36 2009. What gets me is some people are hopeing they go out of business, just what america needs another company gone under. Support theses people give them encourgement, lets get the pride back into our country our people and our products. LETS GO AMERICA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
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Posted by kcram3500 on Tue Aug 25 22:39:09 2009, in response to Re: Millennium debt deepens, posted by JAzumah on Tue Aug 25 19:42:32 2009. I have a factoring line for my company. If I can get one, Millennium can get one.Two differences: - as an operating company, you have far steadier accounts receivable - you're not in Chapter 11 right now MTS has both of those strikes against them, and they have a miserable track record with suppliers who will want to be paid in full up front to do business. If getting a factoring line was that simple, they would have gotten one back in 2006 (long before the current credit freeze) when they began production of the NJT order. In fact, MTS was already mortgaged to their eyeballs, and additional credit was extremely hard to come by. Their main creditors were local and state government agencies. |
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Posted by RTS_book on Tue Aug 25 22:45:18 2009, in response to Re: Millennium debt deepens, posted by fishbowls4ever on Tue Aug 25 20:57:26 2009. I'm not wishing them harm, but I can only suspend disbelief for so long. Things look bleak at this point in time... |
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Posted by Flxiblemetro on Wed Aug 26 01:33:43 2009, in response to Millennium debt deepens, posted by busfreak99 on Sun Aug 23 12:55:19 2009. I gusess Millennium needs to start building low floor buses.Does anyone know if Millennuim already started producing low floor buses for TA's now? |
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Posted by RailBus63 on Wed Aug 26 09:08:04 2009, in response to Re: Millennium debt deepens, posted by RTS_book on Tue Aug 25 20:20:36 2009. I think we're in agreement here - the bottom line was that Quebec were calling the shots and were apparently unwilling to give the folks in Roswell the proper funding to perfect the RTS low-floor design and bring it to production, no doubt because it would have competed with 'their' LFS.. |
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Posted by brightonr68 on Wed Aug 26 12:44:27 2009, in response to Re: Millennium debt deepens, posted by busdude2 on Tue Aug 25 16:45:01 2009. "Ignorant why because we disagree with you. Throwing more of our taxpayer money out the window for a company that most likely wont make it anyway. Feel free to send your money if you want to help them i'm sure they will take it."No because the non-business news media misreported the issue. The money was used to grease the markets for loans and coorporate bonds tha businesses use to finance thier parole until they get paid hense the layoffs. The Gov is set to make - $30 billion so far off it's citibank interest. The gov paid $1 a share for it's citibank stake instead of taking the 5% interest it was owed. Citibank stock is now $4.65 and is said to reach $12 by 2012 - $5 billion off golman Sachs - $2 billion so far from Bank of america Basic finacial education should be requires in all high schools. Much of the shanangans that the politicos get away with would end |
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Re: Millennium debt deepens |
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Posted by TC40102A#9167 on Wed Aug 26 12:47:42 2009, in response to Re: Millennium debt deepens, posted by RailBus63 on Wed Aug 26 09:08:04 2009. I agree with you and the LFS is truly a crappy bus for the jump, not very solid and it just goes to show by example in Montreal STM has already scrapped their very 1st LFS's but still have CLASSIC's from 1991 and 1992 still running in service along with the rest of their CLASSIC fleet from `1993,1994, and 1995. With the rebuilding done in house they will out live some of the very buses that were supposed to start phasing them out. Excellent points Railbus63 & RTS_Book. |
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Posted by QM18Express on Wed Aug 26 16:12:02 2009, in response to Re: Millennium debt deepens, posted by TC40102A#9167 on Wed Aug 26 12:47:42 2009. Ok I thought all the Classics from 1991-1992 got retired from STM?Well I do agree that many of the early LFS's are not very solid. Some of the newer 1's are holding up very well! I don't think those LFS's where made to handle the type of climate that Quebec has as Quebec has some very rough winter weather like very often. The LFS can manage to survive NYC as NYC winter is not all that rough! |
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Re: Millennium debt deepens |
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Posted by brightonr68 on Wed Aug 26 16:19:09 2009, in response to Re: Millennium debt deepens, posted by kcram3500 on Tue Aug 25 22:39:09 2009. "Millennium would use a combination of factoring and contract financing in order to do this."New factoring accounts are hard to get. CIT one of the largest in the space is in financial trouble. IT was unable to sell corporate paper that finances it's factoring business. If the Gov would have stepped in BEFORE the markets locked up after the failure of lehman brothers MANY of the other companies who had no connection to the mortgage market would have not been affected. CIT's core business was not loosing money |
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Re: Millennium debt deepens |
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Posted by busdude2 on Wed Aug 26 16:32:20 2009, in response to Re: Millennium debt deepens, posted by brightonr68 on Wed Aug 26 12:44:27 2009. Sorry we should not be giving money to any company. For years the big three car makers kept on building gas guzzling trucks and suv's and made a killing. Then gas went through the roof and they came begging for help. Tough sh*t they wanted to play they should pay not us. And helping Millenniun transit would have been a lost cause. And a waste of more money. |
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Re: Millennium debt deepens |
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Posted by brightonr68 on Wed Aug 26 16:51:02 2009, in response to Re: Millennium debt deepens, posted by busdude2 on Wed Aug 26 16:32:20 2009. "Sorry we should not be giving money to any company. "The money was lent to the banks at a 5% interest rate. If you look at the facts it is the gov fault for the mess. It has been talked about(an article every six months since 2003 in the wall street journal) that private money was lending money to people who could not afford to repay it. The gov ignored it an in fact encourage fanny mae and freddy mack to increase the cap and lower standards. that is the truth. Research it and get back to me. The money was to make up for the mistakes the gov made to make it look like the economy was doing far better then it actually was. The shut hit the fan eventually. It always does As for the big three ans the gas guzzling SUV's. The UAW was one of the leading groups to lobby congress to allow SUV's for consumer purchases to have a far LOWER CAFE score than cars which was 28 mpg. this was to preserve the HIGH salaries and job banks(basically if the company did not need you to build cars they had to pay you your salary anyway) The UAW knew with the current contract the Big three could not sell cars at a profit. The big three did what they could to stay in business. The UAW contract put the big three at a cost diasadvantage of $3000 per vehicle. They could not comepete with toyota and honda on price. The margin on SUV's was big so they could make money on them |
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